Monday, January 24, 2011

Reader Question: IG Army List Critique

by SandWyrm and Farmpunk

Hello and happy holidays.

I have been reading the blog for a while and to me it seams like Sandwyrm is one heck of an experienced Imperial guard player, and thats why i would love to get some constructive criticism on my planed imperial guard list.
it goes a little something like this :

    HQ
Company command squad 4x plasma gun,chimera and master of the fleet 195

    Elites
psyker battle squad + 3 psykers chimera 145

    Troops
chimelta 155 multilaser heavy flamer
chimelta 155 multilaser heavy flamer
chimelta 155 multilaser heavy flamer
chimelta 155 multilaser heavy flamer

infantry platoon
platoon command squad autocannon,grande luncher 45
squad 1  autocannon,granade luncher 65
squad 2  autocannon,granade luncher 65

    Fast Attack
vendetta 130
vendetta 130
vendetta 130

    Heavy Support
leman russ battle tank hull heavy bolter 150
leman russ demolisher hull heavy flamer 165
manticore hull heavy flamer 160

for a total of 2000 points.

Thanks in Advance and i wish you all a happy holiday.

P.s As thanks i might send you guys a picture of my army if i one day mange to finish painting it all.


-Arnold

Farmpunk's Comments:

Only things I'd change are dropping a plasma on the CCS, and dropping the AC/GL on the PCS in favor of 3 melta, and dropping them out of a vendetta for a surprise. I'd also like to see a commisasar or something to make the Platoon stick.

 SandWyrm's Comments:

It's not a bad list at all. It's efficient and covers all the basics. But it doesn't quite synergize to my liking.

When I look at a list, I like to have a feel for how it's going to play on the table. Specifically, is it a defensive force or an offensive one? Is it largely static or mobile?

I see this as a mobile list that can't quite shake it's static elements.

Chimeltas, Russes, and Vendettas scream "mobility", while the Manticore, Platoon, Fleet Officer, and (to a lesser extent) the Psyker Battle Squad are more static in nature. Why would you drop high-scatter pie plates on the enemy if you're going to be up in his face?

Pick one. Either go with Platoons and cheap Artillery, or drop the static elements for more mobility. Personally, I think that mobility trumps firepower every time.

A 4 Plasma CCS is good for guarding the backfield while ordering around a platoon that's sitting on an objective. But if I'm going to order platoons around, I'd rather have 2 of them to maximize the effects of my orders. And maybe (but not always) Commissars to keep them in line when I need to.

In that sort of build your PCS squads should take 4 meltas and a Chimera for a cheap (but just as effective) version of a Vet Chimelta. Or you can put them in the Vendettas for some alpha-strike ability.

If mobility is your game, then swap in 4 Meltas and let your CCS lead the charge into mid-field.

Psyker Battle squads are kind of meh now that so many armies have effective Psychic defense. Orks will hate you, but Space Puppies will laugh instead.

The third Vendetta seems like a bit much. I've never needed more than 2 of these myself. Especially if they're backed up by more infantry squad autocannons.

The Russ needs a Heavy Flamer instead of a Heavy Bolter. Heavy Bolters are ALWAYS fail. They just suck at everything and screw up your wound allocation.

I'd probably go with 2 Demolishers and a Vanilla Russ myself.

Any more tips from the readership?

10 comments:

  1. In my opinion dual Hydras is always better than one Russ when you have alot of AV12 in your army.

    I would use the extra points (15) + those from removing your grenade launchers (15) to give the Vendettas Heavy Bolters.

    Those added shots makes sure you can actually kill marines when you destroy their transports.

    You can bubblewrap your chimeraline or sprint a few of the meltas forward as needed.

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  2. I agree with Sandwyrm with the need to look at the functionality of a list.

    I think Sandwyrm confused the Officer of the Fleet with the Master of Ordnance...I think the OP has Officer? I use him for the mobile...Master in the backfield.

    Looking at the list, I see:
    CCS - a solid backfield support role or Vendetta surprise...I even give them PlasmaP and Carapace...V opens the transport and then lay down 9 S7 AP2 shots.

    PBS x8 is good for backfield support (template) or for front objective clearing (Weaken), combine with the CCS and you almost guarantee a fleeing unit below half strength.

    Troops:
    You have to mix these up a little. Redundancy is one thing...
    2 Melta Vets in the Vendetta's...
    1 Plasma Vets in the backfield with the PBS...
    1 Flame Vets with Demo is always nice in a Vendetta...

    This should be all you need if you include the Plt...I use Harker with Melta/HF Vets outflanking.

    Platoon - I understand the static Troop support...they need a ride. Number one rule of IG is get in the tank and don't get out unless you are pulled out. Foot Guard are nice but not 20 Infantry with no Commissar...
    I like PCS with 4 Melta in a Valk...
    2 Inf Chimera AC in the backfield.

    Combine with the Vets and you have a nice mix.
    Preference might be:
    2 Melta Vets Chimeras flank or straight ahead
    1 Plasma Vet Chimera supporting the PBS Chimera
    Platoon-
    PCS Melta in Valk
    2 Infantry Flamer, AC in Chimera backfield
    2 Special Weapon in Vendetta's. I use x3 Demo for each.
    Gives me 8 scoring Troops all over the board, Anti-tank mobility. Anti-horde alpha strike or Transport pop and alpha strike, backfield support or roadblocks.

    I agree that you should go either way with the Heavy Support...all static Artillery or mobile Lemans...
    I like the Demolishers and the Executioners for mobile OR Hydras/Basilisks for static.

    And yes, rip the HB off everything and put HF on all of them...you will thank the Emperor for them when you hit a horde with 6 or more in one turn.

    Sandwyrm - dropping templates next to your frontline IG is fantastic. Close quarter firing...if your opponent knows you are not afraid to sacrifice your units he might not get close enough to assault.

    Farmpunk - why drop 1 Plasma ? CCS is a throwaway unit anyway, no need to spend the pts on Medic...

    ReplyDelete
  3. I'm not confused about the Fleet Officer. I just think he fits a bit better in a static list that seeks to limit the other guys' drop rate when facing Daemons or Blood Angels. Sure, I'll take him if I have the points, but he's not essential to a mobile army the way an Astropath is.

    As for Manticores, I'm not afraid of firing my Demolishers up close, but a 3D6 indirect scatter? No thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I think sandwyrm brings up a couple really good points to think about:
    -what do you want your list to do?
    -are manticores worth it
    -lastly do Battle squads really do anything against many of the armies running on the tables today?

    Something I would be curious to ask though that has been suggested is why aren't there guys in your vendettas? Buying a vendetta that has 3 lascannons and scout is nice or course. However wouldn't it be even better to put melta guns in those vendettas?
    -melta-dettas give you a turn 1 melta and tank busting.
    -save points on chimeras buy autocannons
    -plasma-detta for monsters or other things like rhinos light transport or ANY foot troops.

    Something I'm curious about is where are the artilary batteries? Why take a manticore? sure D3 Str10 AP4 is nice, but like sandwyrm said against a fast army that 3D6 scatter is scary for you. if you are running chimeras russes and such artilary batteries like basilisks or medusas (don't have the codex with me think those are the ones i'm thinking) will help destroy infantry and ignore those armor saves.

    The local guard player I get games in with here in muncie runs a list similar to the one you put up but the biggest issue is he doesn't have mobile enough troops. platoon squads have to give up those autocannons firing to snag objectives, also the squad runs away ALL the time. Try making them stubborn if you plan on keeping them as your only back field objective holders.

    Hydras are very nice against eldar, dark eldar, and any other light armored army yes I suggest them if you want to drop the money for conversions or forgeworld parts.

    Lastly, yes heavy bolters suck, a lot, very hard, have no purpose anywhere. If they were STR6 we could talk but they aren't so try not to take them if at all possible. I don't think a lascannon would be worth the points. if you are taking a regular russ you are shooting at guys many times, so a lascannon doesn't do you too many favors.

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  5. 3d6 scatter? Huh? Ordinance scatters 2d6 and you can fire the Manticore directly just like the Demolisher anyway.

    I'd consider some suicidal SWS for the empty Vendettas. Flamers/melta/demo, it's all good. They're cheap, they hurt and they make the Vendetta scoring.

    With the PBS, seriously consider pumping them up to 8 strong rather than 7. Strength 8 blast makes all the difference against multiple wound models with T4 or lower AND against models with Feel No Pain thanks to instant death. It's only 10 points and makes a big difference.

    ReplyDelete
  6. You've got me on the scatter. I was thinking of the MOO scatter instead of the 2D6 indirect scatter.

    Still a bit inaccurate for my taste.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I would second Sandwyrm's thought on the PCS loading them with meltas and making the Vendettas scoring is a definitely a way to go.

    I'd drop one Vendetta and the OoF, Desect of Angels makes the OoF largely worthless unless you see a lot of Chaos Demon players. I'd pick up a SWS with 3 meltas or 3 flamers plus or minus a demo charge for the other Vendetta.

    I think that I'd also replace the Manticore with a Eradicator with a hull HF . This will add some ranged cover denial for large horde armies, while still stacking wounds on MEQs.

    ReplyDelete
  8. why drop 1 plas on the CCS? I was trying to not make a LOT of changes to the list.

    I suppose dropping the MoF is probably better, and would net you enough to get plenty of melta for a PCS.

    I'm also not a big fan of Psyker squads. My Inquisitors and sisters shut them down pretty easily. I'd prefer to see some Spec. Weapon squads to ride in vendettas. packed with melta.

    I'm also not sold on 3 vendetta. I think 2 is enough, and I'm not crazy about the manticore, but I see uses for it.

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  9. An Eradicator would work, though it's 36" range limits it somewhat for backfield duty. An Exterminator wouldn't be bad either as a little bit of extra anti-tank.

    Vanilla Russes though, have a lot of range and scare Marines plenty. :)

    ReplyDelete
  10. The LRBT is hard to beat on value for killing MEQs. Specialty tanks like the Eradicator tend to fill more specific niches. Orks HATE that tank. My last game against an ork player with that and a couple of Hellhounds, was a real vocabulary builder.

    ReplyDelete

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