Thursday, April 14, 2011

Grey Knights: Hey! The Sky Isn't Falling!

by SandWyrm


What was that moaning sound you heard last night?... the screaming?.... Well that was Uberdark's Orks as they surrendered to the might of the Imperial Guard at the end of turn 2. :)

I was using a minor tweak of my Adepticon list:

    HQ
180    Company Command Squad w/3 x Melta, Reg. Standard, Fleet Officer, Chimera
70    Primaris Psyker

    Troops
155    Veteran Squad w/3 x Melta, Chimera
155    Veteran Squad w/3 x Melta, Chimera
155    Veteran Squad w/3 x Melta, Chimera
140    Veteran Squad w/3 x Grenade Launcher, Chimera
145    Veteran Squad w/3 x Flamer, Demolitions, Grenadiers
145    Veteran Squad w/3 x Flamer, Demolitions, Grenadiers
   
    Fast Attack
130    Vendetta Gunship
130    Vendetta Gunship
130    Hellhound w/Hull Heavy Flamer

    Heavy Support
165    Leman Russ Demolisher w/Hull Heavy Flamer
150    Leman Russ Battle Tank w/Hull Heavy Flamer

Total: 1850

Uberdark can post his list to the comments. He was running 2 Battlewagons with Deathrollas, a Nob Bike Squad, 2 Deathkoptas, a couple of trucks, and 2 small squads of Lootas.


My dice rolling was a bit above average, nice but not spectacular. While his rolling was well below average. Which, for Orks, is a death sentence. Even though he seized the initiative on me, two-thirds of his army was gone by the end of the second turn. While my only damage was an exploded Chimera, an immobilized Vendetta, and 2 mangled Flamer/Demo squads. The wind really went out of his sails when Wazdakka's entire unwounded bike squad was wiped out in a single turn of shooting.

Normally I wouldn't crow about such a one-sided game, but he was smack-texting me yesterday:
"I had a dream last night. In it, guardsmen with desert camo on died under mass fire from a brilliant Ork general. Twas good."
Yep. Nice dream. :)


And On To The Grey Knights...


The North Store has been getting going earlier and earlier lately. Six o'clock used to be the norm, but now you really have to get there at 5:30 to be sure of a game. Even though Farmpunk got there at 6pm (a recent record for him), all of the tables were already taken. So when Uberdark and I got done early, I asked Farmpunk if he wanted to play me with his new Grey Knights at 1500. He jumped at the chance.

I pulled the following list out of my bag, which is pretty much the same one I brought to the last 1500 tourney at the North Store.

    HQ
150    Company Command Squad w/3 x Melta, Company Standard, Chimera (Hull Heavy Flamer)

    Troops
155    Veteran Squad w/3 x Melta, Chimera
125    Platoon Command Squad w/4 x Melta, Chimera (Hull Heavy Flamer)
60    + Infantry Squad w/Autocannon
60    + Infantry Squad w/Autocannon
125    Platoon Command Squad w/4 x Melta, Chimera (Hull Heavy Flamer)
60    + Infantry Squad w/Autocannon
60    + Infantry Squad w/Autocannon

    Fast Attack
130    Vendetta Gunship
130    Vendetta Gunship
130    Hellhound w/Hull Heavy Flamer
   
    Heavy Support
165    Leman Russ Demolisher w/Hull Heavy Flamer
150    Leman Russ Battle Tank w/Hull Heavy Flamer

Total: 1500

Farmpunk's list was:

 HQ:
Crowe -150pts
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/conversion beamer, Servo Skull - 73pts
   3 acolytes - 12pts
Razorback w/psybolt ammo -50pts

Troops:
5x Purifiers (2psycannon, 2 Halberds, 1 DH, rhino) - 189pts ea.

Heavys:
2x Riflemen Dreads w/psybolt ammo - 135pt ea

1500pts.

We roll up Sieze Ground with 4 objectives and a Dawn of War deployment. Farmpunk wins first turn. He deploys the Inquisitor in a table corner and 2 Purifier squads forward in cover to limit my deployment. He decides to roll everything else on.

I deployed 2 blobs in cover. Everything else would roll on.

Then I seized the initiative. :)


The Russ and the Demolisher hit both Purifier squads, with backup from my blobs, Chimeras, and Vendettas. By the time I'm done, one Purifier squad is wiped out and the other is down to a single Psycannon model.

The rest of the game goes just as poorly for Farmpunk as he showed Uberdark just how much worse his rolling could have been. My luck improves, throwing things even further out of whack. I rolled 5's and 6's for all of my Pen results, while he had trouble even hitting with his Psycannons, much less rolling better than a 1 or 2 for his damage results.

He called it mid-way through turn 3 with about half of his force gone and only one dead Vendetta and a mangled Russ to show for it.


The Take-Away


Grey Knights may have some cool new toys, but they're still just Marines in power armor and Rhinos. Which is a real problem as there's going to be quite a few less of them in a typical GK force than in most armies from the other Marine chapters. While this game wasn't typical, it does show that GK players can't be cavalier about exposing themselves to opposing firepower. Particularly against Guard or Space Wolves.

Farmpunk had gotten a little giddy after slaying Dark Eldar and Tyranids for the last 2 weeks. Then he tried walking around in front of battle cannons. Now he realizes how much he's going to have to concentrate on formulating a standard battle plan that keeps his guys safe while maximizing his firepower. I'm also inclined to say that he'll need to put at least a few meltas into his force to properly round it out.

31 comments:

  1. Okay, okay, okay....i lost. gloriously bad. if you know me, you know that i love smack talk, which generally doesnt mean a thing, but it usually ends with some jibes about someones mom. mine actually. lol.

    i give it to ya wyrmy. ya got me. i got mowed down like a little b*&^h! as farmpunk said, "now we know what happens to 2 rounds of continuous guard fire. lol.

    my personal favorite was watching my ork bikers get somefin like 22 wounds. of which 4 i think were saved. my knack for rolling 1's was legendary AND i threw my codex. YEP I THREW IT FOR BEING LAME!! but ive won 1 game, and now hes won 2. game for should be interesting. i think its time for me to break out my dreadbash list and let that ghazkull model ive had sitting on my shelf for 6 months do some talkin. rock on wyrm. farmpunk and i are gonna kill ya next time. lol.

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  2. GK's are going to have trouble with long range firepower.

    I find it strange that the newest codex by GW basically cements the current tournament world into place. GK's rock against things like Tyranids and Dark Eldar. They hurt against stuff like IG. So guess what tourney world, your struggling Nids and DEldar have a tougher road, while the kings of the castle have an army they are stronger against than the space marine crew.

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  3. @Uberdark

    Heh, you're the one that said I should put it up on the blog. ;)

    @Boxhead

    That's my fear. But I think it's too early to tell yet. This codex is going to have at least one awesome build in it, but it's going to take some time to find.

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  4. So here's my take away:

    Imperial Guard (also space wolves) are still the top two codices and GW doesn't know how to balance the other army books around these two.

    Lets analyze this truthfully the GK list never had a chance. (I'm assuming the Purifier squads were 5 man squads please correct me if I'm wrong)

    - The GK list had 6 vehicles and 2 walkers the IG player had what?
    *8 melta guns
    *2 russes
    *6 lascannons
    *4 autocannons
    ya the GK vehicles wouldn't have made it past turn 3 no matter how you cut it.

    -The GK list had a conversion beamer. . . the only thing that could have dealt with armor 14 without praying for rends.

    -O ya did I mention Autocannons and lascannons out range psycannons O YA! duh!

    -The GK list only had how many bodies? 27!!! Wait. . . I think Battlecannons MURDER marines last time I checked. O ya and the demolisher cannon don't forget.

    Farmpunk- this is not at your fault don't think I'm pointing fingers at you, the list was about as good if not as good as it gets at 1500. So don't think for a second I'm accusing you of bad list building.

    Sandy- WTF again. . . curb stomping orks, really I thought you went through rehab and got over that anger issue when you saw red. Good job on your games.

    When I heard the rumors of GK I was praying for a counter to Guard or at least SW. . .what a joke I was a fool for ever thinking GW would try to narrow the gap between IG/SW and everyone else.

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  5. I admit I have a little bit of sky is falling. In all honesty,I believe for a GK army to be viable in the tourney world and stand up to IG his build will by necessity be weaker against Nids and DEldar (basically less force weapons. psy-spam.. Less GK, more Inquisition) Hence the Coteaz love. That's my hope. In the current tourney world, the ability to rock against nids and deldar isn't the goal.

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  6. Boxhead- you only need a single forcehammer to really make tyranids cry. Also Psy-spam is nice but how much is that psycannon guy? on average 30+ for a single 3+ one wound guy. Why not pay 35 points for a monkey that's more versatile that you can but 4 point warriors for wounds? The sad part is these monkeys also scare nids and DE vehicles. Sure the p-cannon has more shots but you sacrifice range and STR.

    In the current tourney world it's about how to swat down a krak missile and avoid getting blown off the table by leaf blower. . .

    Put simply GW made another codex to sell models. If you want to play GK you go out buy the guys, realize you need henchmen, then realize it's better to just play guard. P.s. all the henchmen are metal except a select few which is cute. Did GW build a tournament codex? NOPE! They needed another cash cow and TADA GK seemed like the best option. . .why do you think the Stormraven and dredknight are in the book? They're expensive, sadly IG and SW will reign supreme for quite awhile.

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  7. Sandy- Is the grenade launcher squad there to keep the Primaris company? If so, how is that combined squad working for you? I remember you talking a bit about it earlier and I was wondering if you had any more insights.

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  8. rionnay: sorry but your comment about curb stomping puts me off. your being a d&^k!

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  9. Uber- Sorry :-P do you expect anything less from me? No hard feelings i've had my face put on the curb by sandy before. . . bad place to be.

    p.s. I need to touch base with you about next weekend.

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  10. Yeah, my Adepticon list had plasmas in that squad, which I found didn't mesh well with the Primaris. So I swapped them for Grenade Launchers (same range and strength) and used the extra points for an officer of the fleet.

    That combo has ruled for 3 games now. Uberdark was smart enough to prioritize the Primaris and pop his ride, but his squad passed their checks and put six or seven wounds on the bikers in the following shooting phase. :)

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  11. There are few armies that can withstand 2rnds of IG shooting, not do anything, and still win. It's the ugly combo of Dawn of War and stolen 1st turn.

    I probably should have deployed 2 rhinos, or kept both squads very hidden when I deployed. I wanted to have mid-field threat on turn1.

    actually, perhaps a squad in it's rhino behind cover might not have been bad.

    I still sort of like the conversion beamer inquisitor. too bad he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn last night. I may switch him out to try the Vindi.

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  12. @ sandwyrm

    and to think you used to scoff at the idea of PCS's with 4 GL's (or 4 melta) and using platoons.

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  13. @Rionnay

    Don't make the mistake of thinking that Psycannon spam is the be all and end all of the GK codex, anymore than pure Chimelta spam is the ultimate for the Guard. I think there's plenty of room for improvement still at 1500. But that will have to be tactics-driven instead of firepower/efficiency driven. Because I can tell you from experience that firepower alone doesn't win games.

    Farmpunk and I also discussed tactics after the game, and I think there's lots of improvement to be had there as well. I've had similarly one-sided games against his Sisters (and vice versa) before. But when he gets his deployment and movement right, it's a whole different game. Give him more time to practice!

    New dice would also help. Or maybe washing them in holy water. ;)

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  14. rhionnay: s'okay. you can be a jerk sometimes. lol. i dont think you mean to be. you are just blunt. but where some wont call ya out on it, i always do. lmao. rock on.

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  15. Mike Brandt has a nice GK list up that I think is heading in the right direction. It could probably scale to 1500 comfortably.

    From: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2011/04/busy-gk-and-addendums.html

    Inquisitor w/ Servo-Skull, Terminator Armor/DaemonHammer, Psycannon - 83
    Grand Master w/ Psychotroke Grenades - 190

    Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband - 3 Multi-Melta Servitors, 3 Warrior Acolytes, Chimera - 97

    10 Grey Knight Terminators w/ 2 Psycannons, 4 Daemon Hammers, 4 Halberds, Brotherhood Banner - 475
    10 Grey Knights w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 260
    10 Grey Knights w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 260
    10 Grey Knights w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 260

    Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta, Psybolt, TL Autocannon - 125
    Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta, Psybolt, TL Autocannon - 125
    Dreadnaught w/ Multi-Melta, Psybolt, TL Autocannon - 125

    I'm envisioning the Grand Master scouting 1-3 squads forward on the first turn. My first pick would probably be the Chimera full of Multi-Melta Servitors to enable a strong mid-field presence on turn 1. While the Servitors and the Dreds fire at transports, the GK Rhinos would move forward 12" while smoked. Then on turn 2 the fireworks can really begin as the Psycannons open up.

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  16. i am not a fan of the 3 dreads. i understand the reasoning, but tbh, for what this army is doing, it is going to slow for the rst of the bad ass rhino runnin fools. i would take out two of them and a rhino and consider a stormraven instead.

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  17. One Stormraven is one dead tank a turn. Whereas 3 Dreds is 2-3 dead tanks a turn. I like the idea of 6 multi-meltas in a list that needs to kill Russes in mid-field.

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  18. sandy- I like the list I was thinking of something close to that. Here's my only issue what are the termis doing? It's going to take until turn 4 for them to get across the field and at that point they're playing clean up, which termis are great at :-D but wouldn't a littler versatility work better? I'm guessing he wants to try to scout the termis also with the chimmy and make the enemy pick which one they want more.

    Secondly 4 hammers and 4 halbers on the termis? wouldn't two of each work just fine? with the sword they get a 4+ invuln I'd worry that I'd lose too many guys because i'd be failing 5+ invulns.

    Thirdly the only way I have seen a stormraven really work is with a libby inside and a grandmaster. You scout D3 units forward one of which being the libby in and squad in the raven then a couple razers. Turn 1 you use the summoning to drop termies at the 26 inch mark of the table. (12deploy assume you stop at 12 with scout if you do the silly sideways turn trick that's another 2inches= 26 + termis cannons are then in range. If you go second though. . . well ya bad news you may die hard.

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  19. The list isn't mine. It's also 2K, not 1500.

    I'm not saying it's perfect, only that I like where it's going. Let's improve on it.

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  20. I'm up for the challenge :-D Lets assume we go with a similar build right? Also lets keep the same feel of the list, I hate when someone asks for help and someone takes them in the opposite direction. Direct them but don't detour them away. I'm a fan of trying to allow people to use the units they like but warning them if they're bad. My opinion the termis are bad. . .really bad. So lets do this.

    Cotez-100
    Grand Master- Psycannon, 220

    PurifiersX5- 2 Psycannons, DH, 2 halberds, Rhino- 189

    Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband - 3 Multi-Melta Servitors, 3 Warrior Acolytes, Chimera - 97
    Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband - 3 Multi-Melta Servitors, 3 Warrior Acolytes, Chimera - 97
    Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband - 3 Multi-Melta Servitors, 3 Warrior Acolytes, Chimera - 97
    10 Grey Knights w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 260
    10 Grey Knights w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 260
    10 Grey Knights w/ 2 Psycannons, Rhino - 260

    Dreadnaught TL autocannon, Psybolt, TL Autocannon - 135
    Dreadnaught TL autocannon, Psybolt, TL Autocannon - 135
    Dreadnaught TL autocannon, Psybolt, TL Autocannon - 135

    I'm like 9 points under. . . meh w/e do what you will with those points. The plan is to scout the D3 chimmys forward. Putting 9MM on the middle of the table. Cotez would go with one of the scouting squads in the middle of the field (why?). Shoot w/e deep strikes with 3 multi-meltas. . . i'm ok with this. The Grandmaster would go with that squad also giving them a psycannon in their bag of tricks. O you no like him there you say? Who cares that's not his job he only has the psycannon to give support fire.

    If you don't like the Psycannon take it off spend the 45 points plus the 9 and buy yourself something nice. . . GL I think I filled all my troops, all my heavies, their fast are too expensive and what elites will you get? :-D I'm proud

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  21. You need Inquisitors for those Servitor units or they'll go all mindlock on you. I also don't think that you need more than 2.

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  22. S*#@ mindlock is such a stupid rule in all honesty, why is it inquisitor how about LD10 character period? That would make sense nvm.

    If we dropped one squad in the chimmy we would have 106 points free. dropping the Psycannon on the grandmaster would make it 151. 151 points is enough for a small counter assault squad of deathcults and crusaders in a chimmy for the Grandmaster to roll with but idk if it's needed.

    151 points. . .I got it, Rhino squad 5 grey knights with a Psycannon- 150 points, throw a search light on a vehicle with the extra one point.

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  23. I played a GK dude the other day.

    It was always going to be a tough fight for him but his expectations of his own force supprised me. For example he put his terminators into some cover in the middle of the board but then just sat there shooting. I asked him why he didn't assault with them and he said psycannons were the best way to use them...
    He also teleported a dreadknight into the middle of some meltavet Chimeras... They sure thought Christmas had come early(!)

    I think the main problem is GK player's expectations of their force have been effected by the hype. Probably by accident he got stuck in assault vs a marine list and those force weapons were just brutal. Once players get a handle on how best to use their toys they should become more competitive.

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  24. @ korona

    I second that. It's common with brand new codexes. The way GK's play is pretty different from what DH's used to play.

    heck. I used to be able to bring cheap platoon autocannons and platoon command squads with meltas. Then finish off with inquisitorial stormtroopers w/ melta/plasma, and have my GK's DS in, or ride to the front in the big, nasty LandRaider.

    now all my old halberd models aren't cost effective as GKSS's, and are pretty fragile as purifiers.

    one thing didn't change: They still have a pretty steep learning curve, and minimal fast attack or long range firesupport.

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  25. @Korona

    Most people don't embrace change. They stick with what they know for as long as possible. Just look at how long it's taken the community at large to embrace the realities of 5th Edition.

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  26. I have played 8 games with the new Grey Knights and have won 7 of 8. I am not playing anything even close to what you all are talking about. I have played:

    Chaos Daemons-Win
    Chaos Daemons-Win
    Blood Angels-Win
    Blood Angels-Win
    Guard-Win
    Guard-Win
    Salamanders-Draw
    Salamanders-Win

    3 of these games where against top competition! Scott and Justin. I think you are all playing the grey knights as something they aren't meant to be. The one game I played defensively I tied with Scott. Every other game I have played balls to the walls and crushed my opponents 5 f 8 times.

    Sandwyrm, the Stormraven is not 1 dead tank per turn, but 2. You only need it to live 1 turn anyways if you have the right stuff coming out.

    Grey knights are meant to be in close combat. (No offense to anyone but) Everyone who keeps talking about them being a shooty army should go stick their head in a toilet. They kill almost anyting they touch. Why would you want to stay back? Against Space Marines, you need to get in where your power weapons work, against DE, Nids, eldar, etc, you can shoot them to pieces. Get closer and you will be fine. If people want a guard army, play guard!

    I will buy another storm raven soon, to drop of dreads that kill anything along with a variety of other nasty stuff. 27 models cannot out shoot guard, or space marines, or tau, or eldar. But they can get close and personal and crush anyting!

    I will say it. I am afraid to put my grey knights against my wolves at this point. You should be too. If they get to you, you are in trouble.

    I will post an updated and indepth article on my Grey Knights after 2 more games against a different army type.

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  27. Thanks alot for the battle reps,its always fun reading :)

    Looking forward to read your article Spag :)

    /Janus

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  28. @Spagy

    Thanks for the reality check. :)

    Is this the same list you've posted before, or have you made changes?

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  29. I have tried different types of list based around a core of the same heavy and fast attack choices.

    I need to test this 1500 against orks..JOHN!!!!

    And maybe one more MEQ or Guard army.

    Sorry to sound so direct, but there is soooo much nasty, super powered things you can do with these guys that have very little with shooting.

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  30. spagy...... oh spagy....i sooo wish i would of played tonight. i think it would be epic.

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  31. It would have been fun! I need a game against you to complete my trial.

    The Grey Knights took down an elite army again tonite.

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