Monday, April 25, 2011

List Question: Battlewagon Orks

by SandWyrm


In my last post on Ork competitiveness, amidst the arguing about their randomness, Lehcyfer asked for an analysis of his Ork list. Which I didn't have time to do during the family festivities of Easter weekend. Now that I've had a chance to look it over though, I kind of like it.

Here's the original comment, with my comments inserted. Keep in mind that I'm an IG guy, not an Ork guy. So my experience comes from playing against them, not with them.
lehcyfer wrote:


@SandWyrm & uberdark: On a tangent, not directly correlated theme I'd like you to say what you think about an ork list I'm boiling for half a week now. It's an exercise in one dimensional army list - namely maxed BW's in 2k.

It's not competitive as it can't be, but I'd love to see the face of my opponent seeing the 8 BWs :)

Hmmnnn... this reminds me of a certain battle I played once. Ah! Here it is:

http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-i-won-battle-without-killing.html

Now obviously Battlewagons aren't Land Raiders. So it would go down somewhat differently. But like a lot of scary mono-builds, it's only really scary to inexperienced players.

So from here on out, I'm going to approach this critique from a balanced take-all-comers perspective. In the hopes of coming up with something more competitive at all levels of skill.

(Snip Other Pre-List stuff)

Final list:

HQ
85 Warboss (PK)
85 Warboss (PK)

ELITE
195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)

TROOPS
195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)
155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)
155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)

FAST ATTACK
35 warbuggie (TL rokkit launcha)
35 warbuggie (TL rokkit launcha)
35 warbuggie (TL rokkit launcha)
HEAVY SUPPORT
95 BW (big shoota)
95 BW (big shoota)
95 BW (big shoota)

2000 Total

The army is made of similar blocks, so learning to use its units is simple. That makes it easier to concentrate on tactics.
What I see is 5 Nobz' BWs trying to get as fast as they can to the enemy and roll over it. The Boyz' BWs go slower, trying to shoot their 120 dices of dakka every turn. Warbuggies come between, trying to snipe enemy AT.
After opening transports, nobz unload, burn survivors and try to mop them up. Troop nobz go with warbosses (perhaps this will make them live little longer). Still working BWs flatten everything left like crazy. Whatever remains gets clobbered by boyz. 

SandWyrm's Reply:

Since a take-all-comers list needs long-range suppression fire, the warbuggies are what I'm most interested in. Their missile launchers are twin-linked, so they have about a 54% chance to hit. Which is slightly better than an IG Sentinel. Though the Sentinel gets better weapon options (Autocannons and Multi-Lasers for multiple shots). Against which krak missiles suffer about a 30% penalty in effectiveness.

Still, it's something reliable for long range anti-tank. Here are the odds for 3 Krak missiles at the targets you need to kill:

3 BS3 Krak Missiles Vs. Chimera (Side) - AV10
    Stopped Target Movement: 60%
    Stopped Target Firing: 73%
    Destroyed Target: 31%
    Did Nothing to Target: 20%

3 BS3 Krak Missiles Vs. Rhino - AV11
    Stopped Target Movement: 51%
    Stopped Target Firing: 63%
    Destroyed Target: 24%
    Did Nothing to Target: 30%

3 BS3 Krak Missiles Vs. Chimera (Front) - AV12
    Stopped Target Movement: 39%
    Stopped Target Firing: 50%
    Destroyed Target: 16%
    Did Nothing to Target: 42%

Problem is, you've only got 3 in the whole army. Three single shots is nothing; it's so tactically insignificant that I would just ignore them. To make buggies threatening/reliable as an anti-tank unit, you'd have to max out the squadrons at 3 each. To get there, we would drop a Nob+BW squad and find 15 points somewhere to do so.

So great, now you have 9 Warbuggies (is there even an official model for these?). But now we have to think about how they're going to play on the field. This army is going to have a LOT of vehicles moving forward. Tactically the BWs should run right in, while the buggies should scoot down a flank to try and get side shots.

But there are problems with this. On a properly set up table, you're only going to have a few clear paths open to send the buggies through. Which may interfere with the paths the Battlewagons need to take. Yes, the BWs can just smash through terrain, but they still might end up behind some Buggies and effectively blocked if you're not careful with your movement.

Buggies themselves are also much more blockable than a Battlewagon is. Not that you should be seeking to get close with buggies, but you might need to contest objectives or something later. So perhaps we should trade a unit of buggies for something that can hop over terrain, other vehicles, and wrecks when needed. So I would drop a unit of buggies (and another BW) for a unit of Dethkoptas. Since we can have five in a unit, I will. That way I have more shots and more buzzsaws to assault in later with.

Notice I said "later", because they need to hit their target at the same time that the Battlewagons do, and not be sent in kamikaze-style on turn one, which is how almost all Ork players throw them away now. Instead, scout them around a flank (like IG players do with their Vendettas) and start popping important targets for a turn or two before moving in for the kill.

That way an IG/SM player has to worry not only about the Battlewagons coming right for him, but also about the koptas that could swoop in from his side. Forcing him to try and deal with both at once. They're also a great way of taking out (or limiting the movement of) isolated units like Vendettas, which an IG player needs to get around to your side in order to take out Battlewagons. Or, they could be used to maul or dictate the movement of that GK Stormraven that wants to land on your flank and drop it's Librarian with summoning.

Ok, so let's make a list with all of this in mind:

    HQ
85    Warboss w/Power Klaw
85    Warboss w/Power Klaw

    Troops
275    4 Nobz + Painboy w/4 x Shoota/Scorcha, 1 x Power Klaw, Bosspole, Battlewagon (Big Shoota, Deff Rolla)
275    4 Nobz + Painboy w/4 x Shoota/Scorcha, 1 x Power Klaw, Bosspole, Battlewagon (Big Shoota, Deff Rolla)
160    20 Shoota Boyz w/Nob (Power Klaw), Bosspole
160    20 Shoota Boyz w/Nob (Power Klaw), Bosspole
155    12 'Ard Boyz w/Nob (Power Klaw)

    Fast Attack
230    4 Dethkoptas w/4 x Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas, 2 x Buzzsaw
105    3 Warbuggies w/Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas
105    3 Warbuggies w/Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas
   
    Heavy Support
115    Battlewagon w/Big Shoota, Deff Rolla
95    Battlewagon w/Big Shoota
155    Battlewagon w/Big Shoota, Killkannon

Total: 2000 Pts.

I had to drop a Kopta to beef up the Nobs a bit.

The 'Ard Boyz go in the Wagon with the Killkannon. They're your reserve and will be sitting in the mid/backfield to hold your objective. Their armor will keep Marines from sweeping them aside with bolters on the last turn of the game.

The Warbosses go with the Nobs, of course. I didn't give them armor because it's useless against meltas and heavy flamers anyhow. While the Painboy will at least give you a flamer save.

One unit of 20 Shoota Boyz goes in the last wagon with a Deff Rolla. The other takes the plain wagon and follows behind the front line guys. These run forward and smash like you'd expect.

The Koptas and the buggies run down a flank and try to take out what they can with side shots. They're also there to mess with your opponent's movement so they can't just scoot away from the rolla wall or zoom melta torpedoes at you too early.

That's about as reliable and balanced as I can make Orks. The Dethrollas are still D6 hits, but most everything else is predictable enough to rely on. Even if it's not as spectacular as you might get with more luck-based units, it won't suck as bad when your luck turns either.

21 comments:

  1. I'd love to fight this list. Sadly my local ork player seems to roll a D6 for his weekly attendance. :P

    ReplyDelete
  2. Lehcyfer also emailed me that list for review, which I'll do on 3++ (and I'll link to here as first cab off the rank). I have a feeling that this list question will be showing up all over!

    ReplyDelete
  3. Thanks Sandwyrm for the 5 BWs list :)

    I am aware that 8 BWs list it's not a competitive one. The reason I wrote it was to see how can I deal with it's deficiences. I've also gave there a second list with a bit different makeup and asked which one you prefer. I guess the first one as you concentrated on it.

    As for your list, apart from some point mistakes I'm not so fond of some of the choices:

    "275 4 Nobz + Painboy w/4 x Shoota/Scorcha, 1 x Power Klaw, Bosspole, Battlewagon (Big Shoota, Deff Rolla)"

    I had to get calculator out to find out how many nobz is there. No, it's not 4 Nobz and a painboy, it's 4 nobz, one of which is a painboy... That means that there's one shoota/skorcha too much as painboy comes with dok's tools and 'urty syringe.

    I drop the wrong skorcha and one more - this way I can juggle with their wound allocation.

    The warbosses get cybork bodies, the 'ard boys get a bosspole - they need it being only 12. I also give them a rokkit launcha.

    I don't like kilkannon. Somehow my blasts never land where I want them to :P
    For the back/middle position I'd rather have BW with kannon, 4 rokkit launchas and 'ard case. It still houses 12 'ard boyz, but is not open top anymore (harder to kill), can stand and fire away 6 S8 AP3 shots (one from 'ard boyz)

    4 deffkoptas are too cumbersome and an overkill really, especially that they are in one unit It would be a waste to see one dropped and the rest fleeing. I change it to two deffkoptas with rokkits/buzzsaw each.

    The rest of points goes to rokkits for boyz (never too much S8 AP3), fourth deff rolla and three red paint job. I'd get one more if I had the points for it.

    finally:

    HQ
    95 Warboss w/ power klaw, cybork body
    95 Warboss w/ power klaw, cybork body

    Troops
    270 Nobz x4 w/ Painboy, 2 shoota/scorcha, power klaw, bosspole, Battlewagon (big shoota, deff rolla, red paint job)
    270 Nobz x4 w/ Painboy, 2 shoota/scorcha, power klaw, bosspole, Battlewagon (big shoota, deff rolla, red paint job)
    180 shoota Boyz x20 w/ 2 rokkit launchas, Nob (power klaw, bosspole)
    180 shoota Boyz x20 w/ 2 rokkit launchas, Nob (power klaw, bosspole)
    170 'Ard Boyz x12 w/ rokkit launcha, Nob (power klaw, bosspole)

    Fast Attack
    140 deffkoptas x2 w/ 2 TL rokkit launcha, 2 buzzsaw
    105 Warbuggies x3 w/ 3 TL rokkit launchas
    105 Warbuggies x3 w/ 3 TL rokkit launchas

    Heavy Support
    120 Battlewagon w/ big shoota, deff rolla, red paint job
    115 Battlewagon w/ big shoota, deff rolla
    155 Battlewagon w/ kannon, 4 rokkit launchas, 'ard case

    2000 Total

    Not much tactical changes.

    I thought you guys could look at the 8 BWs list and find out something I've missed, that would give me more food for thoughts :)

    ReplyDelete
  4. @fester: Thanks a lot, I appreciate that. Please try to find something to eke out even more killy 8 BWs list - that's a good exercise I think.

    Then list your perfect BW army too - the more orkz goodness the better. I for one am sick to death with GK all over the internet :P

    ReplyDelete
  5. I costed it as 5 Nobs total, with one upgraded to a Painboy.

    As for 8 BW goodness. That's not what I do. I only make balanced lists.

    I think you need the extra Koptas. Else you'll be using them wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  6. lehcyfer: ill pull out a 2k 8 bw list, and it will be pretty competitive. ill get it done right after i put up the tourney listings and put boys to bed.

    ReplyDelete
  7. wyrm: the extra koptas are actually an issue. running 4 koptas is silliness. koptas have no bp, and fall back after one model is killed at 4 in the unit. i would only ever run 2 kopta squads over 4 or 5 man kopta squads. that way if they do fall back your not losing so much of a point sink unit.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I used to run three Koptas in the manner 'wyrm describes, as ranged platforms coming in from the flank. This isn't to say "I've done it and it works for me nyah nyah" and expect that to prove owt - I agree that two Koptas is the best way to minimise the effects of poor Ld on a small, moderately expensive unit. However, I feel three enable a compromise between the cheap Morale-proof two and the pricy more-effective-at-shooting four or five. It's also the size at which you can, if inclined that way, pursue wound allocation shenanigans (one saw, one bomb, one vanilla) and get an extra wound's wiggle room.

    ReplyDelete
  9. 'Poor Ld' in the previous comment should probably read 'a failed Morale check' - otherwise that comment is a bit contradictory, with all of its proposing a better buffer to avoid taking the check in the first place. Insomniac posting is occasionally unclear.

    ReplyDelete
  10. von. agreed. morale check. my bad. :) and good points on the 3 koptas list.

    ReplyDelete
  11. If LD is an issue with the Koptas, I'd just drop back to using Buggies. You need the long-range suppression fire.

    ReplyDelete
  12. okay so no its not competitive. lol. i mean seriously, its like running 5 land raiders. works great against some guys, but not all guys. i made some changes that add meganobs which i think are an underappreciated unit, and worked up the wound allocation on the nobs.

    here we go. and btw i got it up to 7 with shenanigans.

    60 pts: warboss: pk(25), cybork(10), eavy armor(5)
    60 pts: warboss: pk(25), cybork(10), eavy armor(5)

    elites: 3 mega nobz (120).
    battlewagon: (90), deff rolla (20), big shoota (5).

    3 mega nobz 120 pts.
    battlewagon:(90), deff rolla (20), big shoota (5).


    Troops:

    4 nobs:
    1 painboy (30 pts)
    1: big choppa(5), ammo runt(3)
    1: big choppa(5)
    1: pk

    Dedicated transport battlewagon: (90), deff rolla (20), big shoota (5).

    4 nobs:
    1 painboy (30 pts)
    1: big choppa(5), ammo runt(3)
    1: big choppa(5)
    1: pk (25)

    Dedicated transport battlewagon: (90), deff rolla (20), big shoota (5).

    15 ork shootas(90)(, nob upgrade(10), pk.(25)

    15 ork shootas, nob upgrade, pk.

    Heavy support:
    battlewagon: (90), Deffrolla(20), big shoota(5)
    battlewagon: (90), Deffrolla(20), big shoota(5)

    I think if I did my maths right that gets you closer to 2k. somewhere around 1970 pts i think. the final points i would put into boss poles, because they will be needed.

    How to use this army: This army is built around the battlewagons of course. So lets look at how I would do this. the warboss goes with each nobs because he will go slower with the meganobs of course. basically move up the meganobs bw's first. Attack, and when they start to take some wounds, bring up the next bw's with the nobs. detach from the nobs, and join the meganobs, since you are all hitting at int. 1.
    the nobs are doing 8 str.7 attacks on the charge at int. 4, the painboy is hitting with poison at int. 4 as well and with fnp, you should stay alive long enought to move in.

    of course once you start losing more nobs, which will happen quickly, bring in the other bws, fire with shoota boys if the situation presents itself, and then move in behind the nobs. at this point you should have had 3 waves of ork killy moving in. mind you a good half might succumb to fire, so work around that.

    things to consider: keep a bw with nobs and boss in reserve for that 11th inning stretch.
    deffrolla when possible, but more onto vehicles than units. with a save on a str. 10 hit, that isnt so good.

    i honestly think the switching of warbosses to meganobz is the way to go and could actually help win a game. will this list win all the time. lord no, but it would sure be fun to see a dudes face when 7 bws come onto the field.

    ReplyDelete
  13. I lost a big comment. Bummer :(
    Need to install the extension that deals with that. What that was that name again?

    OK, once again :/

    @SandWorm:
    "275 4 Nobz + Painboy w/4 x Shoota/Scorcha, 1 x Power Klaw, Bosspole, Battlewagon (Big Shoota, Deff Rolla)"

    "I costed it as 5 Nobs total, with one upgraded to a Painboy."

    5 Nobz(100), painboy upgrade(30), 4 shoota/skorcha(20), PK(25), bosspole(5), Battlewagon(90), big shoota(5), deff rolla(20): total 295.
    You've lost 20 points somewhere then.

    @Uberdark: Your list made me scratching my head repeatedly. Let me sum it up:

    HQ:
    100 Warboss w/ PK, cybork body, 'eavy armour
    100 Warboss w/ PK, cybork body, 'eavy armour

    Elites:
    235 Meganobz x3 w/ Battlewagon (deff rolla, big shoota)
    235 Meganobz x3 w/ Battlewagon (deff rolla, big shoota)

    Troops:
    263 Nobz x4 w/ painboy, PK, 2 big choppa, ammo runt, Battlewagon (deff rolla, big shoota)
    263 Nobz x4 w/ painboy, PK, 2 big choppa, ammo runt, Battlewagon (deff rolla, big shoota)
    125 shoota Boyz x15 w/ nob (PK)
    125 shoota Boyz x15 w/ nob (PK)

    Heavy support:
    125 Battlewagon w/ deff rolla, big shoota
    125 Battlewagon w/ deff rolla, big shoota

    1676 Total

    OK - 6 BWs not 7, no long range AT?, ammo runts to reroll missed slugga shots? 15 boyz with no bosspole? Well...

    I guess You wanted to have one more 15 boyz in deff rolla BW. That's 1916 which leaves 84 points - maybe for 2 warbuggies w/ TL rokkits or an alpha strike deffkopta w/ TL rokkits and buzzsaw? The rest of points goes for bosspoles for Meganobz. Still no bosspoles for boyz...

    1996 Total

    OK. Back to board.

    I made the 8 BWs list aware of it deficiences. the biggest in my opinion is lack of KFF cover to make the BWs harder to kill. That's why if I'd take less BWs, then I'd drop a warboss with attached troop nobz and instead I'd put big mek with KFF. I'd say 7 BWs and one KFF is still too little cover - I'd drop second warboss and troop nobz too. Now there are 6 BWs in trios - each trio covered by a big mek with KFF in the middle BW. All with deff rollas, additionally warbuggies - the cheapest TL rokkits in army, and some alpha strike deffkoptas with rokkits and buzzsaw to get rid of enemy long range AT before it gets rid of my BWs. That's a rough outline - I'll flesh it later.

    Cheers!

    ReplyDelete
  14. okay sorry bout that lehcyfer.i just threw it together late. i was not looking at any anti-tank, because the whole point i thought was to bring up as many bws as possible. so the boys wont be riding in as many bws as you want. so i guess ill go back to the drawing board.

    as for the use of big mek. well tbh, i dont think when you are running 6 bws its as big of a deal. i mean this is total spam anyway. ill look at it again and go from there.

    ReplyDelete
  15. also: ammo runts were purely for wound allocation. and looking over it again i totally forgot to put up the last bw. uggh. damn my forgetfulness.

    on a side note: i really wish i had my army builder program to make this list up. it suffered from 11 pm writing on a sheet of paper, i generally use the stores army builder for my lists, so thursday when i have a free moment i will be able to pull up a better list. i cant just pull a list out of my head, which i totally wish i had the ability to do.

    AND i just saw your original post with the stripped down list. man i really didnt deliver my A game on that one. What can i say, its my fault and I looked stupid for it. Hope the interwebs forgive me. :/

    ReplyDelete
  16. OK. Had a moment and made up this 5BW/2KFF list:

    HQ
    120 Big Mek (KFF, cybork body, burna, grot oiler)
    120 Big Mek (KFF, cybork body, burna, grot oiler)

    ELITE
    293 Nobz x4 (painboy, 4 cybork bodies, PK, shoota/skorcha, shoota/rokkit, ammo runt, bosspole)
    + BW (big shoota, deff rolla, boarding plank)
    293 Nobz x4 (painboy, 4 cybork bodies, PK, shoota/skorcha, shoota/rokkit, ammo runt, bosspole)
    + BW (big shoota, deff rolla, boarding plank)

    TROOPS
    155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)
    155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)
    155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)

    FAST ATTACK
    140 2 Deffkopta (2 TL rokkit launcha, 2 buzzsaw)
    105 3 Warbuggie (3 TL rokkit launcha)
    105 3 Warbuggie (3 TL rokkit launcha)

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    120 BW (big shoota, deff rolla, boarding plank)
    120 BW (big shoota, deff rolla, boarding plank)
    120 BW (big shoota, deff rolla, boarding plank)

    2001 Total

    Dropped one BW to pimp up the nobz.

    Added boarding plank to deff rollas so they can all both roll over vehicles and PK them from close in one turn.
    Shotta/rokkit and ammo runt is one shot TL rokkit for 8pts. :)
    Big mek with burna can deal 4 I4 S5 power weapon attacks charging tin 'ummies :)

    Warbuggies give long range AT, with help from Deffkoptas which can also alpha strike if I go first.

    One change I can see is to drop one buzzsaw to give red paint job to all BWs.

    @Uberdark: Don't worry, just reread what you post next time :)

    ReplyDelete
  17. lehcyfer: ok im not getting it, do you want a 8 bw spam list, or something that is bw heavy? cause at your current layout you have 5 bws. i have a pretty strong 2k list i made with 4 bws and some other silliness. i could retweek that one and post it up.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I started this by asking you guys whether you can shine a different light on a maxed BW list I was cooking up for fun lately. I figured out that second/third set of eyes will help me see something that can be used to make it even better.

    Unfortunately the list was criticised for too much BWs and subsequently lists with less BWs were proposed. SanWyrm's was erroneous so I fixed it up a bit, yours... lets say you didn't proposed one yet :)

    I've put this last one to picture a one I see as a good one with less than max BWs but spamming them nonetheless. It's not the best one of course - I've sunk a lot of points into some funny things, but it gives an idea of what I consider a good BW spam list.

    I'll be happy if you find some great 8BWs combo I'll be able to learn a trick or two from, but I'll be equally happy if you say your mind about my other propositions.

    The last list fields 5 deffrolla/boarding plank BWs (2 with KFF), 6 TL rokkit warbuggies and 2 alpha strike deffkoptas. It has 3 troop choices.

    By leaving one warboss I could make a list similar to the one fielded by Mercer here:
    http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2011/04/battle-report-orks-vs-eldar-2000-points.html
    but I wanted to try something different...

    I just want to get better understanding of armour column orks :)

    ReplyDelete
  19. lehcyfer: maybe we are approaching the armored column list from too rigid of a structuring. You know having bws out the wazoo is awesome, but there are also the looted wagons and their own "decent" armor. Ok. it sucks we know this, lol. or the other use of warbuggies, mixed with other things. I think i might work up a list this afternoon that can be balanced, but still armored up.

    As for your current list, I honestly think you couldnt have done it better. you obviously have taken time into thinking about it, the boarding planks are a great addition that can take care of tanks whilst staying inside the vehicles. although at the same time, I dont like the warbuggies. If you were to change them to skorchas, they would do two things.

    1. still be annoying flanking units.
    2. mop up troops with flamers.

    as for the kff: im still not feeling that as much. Possibly one, but two seems to be trying to cover too much, i know its nice to be able to split bw's but with this, i think one should suffice.

    thanks again. i love learning new things from other ork players. :)

    ReplyDelete
  20. Yeah, by dropping some stuff like the grot oilers I could change one or two warbuggies into skorchas. The warbuggies are great at dealing pain to armour, and at the same time two KFFs ensures them to stay obscured - there's 11 vehicles and they all can have cover - isn't it great?

    There's no Lottas here, so the buggies take their stead - and in prevalence of 3+ infantry armour on tourneys they are surprisingly effective. Also there's this feel of motorized orky armoured column. With all infantry units inside this army looks like Armored Company - you know, the one with only tanks etc. and I love this climate.

    As for looted wagons, they can be awesome, but I really look at it as a choice between 3 BWs filled with shoota boyz or else... I really see nothing that I would prefer. To say the truth if in new codex boyz will be able to take BWs as dedicated transports, I'll be taking six of them without second thought.

    There's an old saying - the one that teaches learns even more than the one that is learning from him :)

    ReplyDelete
  21. I like the Skorcha idea for dealing with bubble wrap.

    ReplyDelete

Recent Favorites

All-Time Favorites