Thursday, May 5, 2011

How Grey knights Warp rifted a player

By TheGraveMind

Things I hate. Haha
I know I've jokingly called cheese on Spag's Grey knights last time I played them. I think the GK book is solid. It is powerful but not really over the top. The only thing I would consider "cheesey" about them are the grenades. -1 T, Stacking random effects and oh the Terminators have assault grenades... sigh. The real issue I wanted to share was the fact that GKs seem to be the scissors to my paper.

The two armies I play are Tyranids and Jump Blood angels. Both of which are screwed over by a good GK list. 3++ gives a good comparison between BA and GK. Though I think the BA are given a bit too much credit.

Blood angels can't reliably deepstrike within 12" of GK's. Same thing with just moving up, you don't want to end within the 7-12 range because then you'll get assaulted. So you are staying 13" ish away. GK move back 6", shoot and then you either move up to your 13" away or move up to 7" and get assaulted after getting shot at. Yes there are ways around it, but that is a main point of frustration. I've also noticed jumpers can have trouble with Terminators. Made worse when they are I6, 4++ troops.

Tyranids are in an even worse boat. Pretty much every single GK unit can instant kill. Be it S8 dreadnought fire, or Force weapons, anything not on a small bases is going to go down quick. For the small guys there are the storm bolters and Powers. The three things I can think of that could do well combating GKs are the ones that are most vulnerable to Storm bolters; stealers, ravaners/shrikes, hormagaunts. Not to mention all of those are getting killed either at or before initiative. (Shadow in the Warp is still a pain for GK's. -farmpunk)

I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom. GKs are not the end all be all. I tabled a GK player with my nids, and he is a very competent player often placing higher than I in most tournaments. What I am trying to say is that I'm transitioning away from playing 40k. I've been on a losing streak for over 2 months (baring the mentioned game against GK), coupled with the increasing feeling that the armies I play are progressively getting worse ( or I am). I will be focusing more on the hobby aspect of 40k. I have some conversions I want to finish up and I'm looking to improve my painting a lot.

I will finish up the next few weeks with my mech BA. I do decent with them but they bring me no real joy to play (there is a reason I'm a Nid player). The G2D4 tourney on the 14th will most likely be my last game for a while. I Think I have one more Nid tactica post in me. I do have some hobby posts I'll be working on.
GW has really just be unimpressive so far to me. It would require a redoing of Nid errata & FAQ or the introduction of 6th ed to really get me interested at this point.

PS. With Spag's recent post about redundancy and such enjoy the following pictures. He is a little less of the top, and a little bit more of the bottom.


  1. This is why I like Stelek's take on DanteWing/Bloodhammer. Sang guard (+/- Devs) care very little for the majority of GK firepower and the list is designed to be deployed on the table so Warp Rift can suck it up. The only problem is the I6 Terminators/Purifiers. The more I6 guys there are though, the fewer 4++s there will be.

  2. Warp Quake is what prevents Deep Strike, Warp Rift is the template that makes you take an Init test.

    I'm still sad that I haven't got to play one of these Sanguinary Guard armies yet. Expensive Space Marines with irrelevant 2+ saves and Power Weapons = yes, please.

  3. Ooops... sorry, Warp Quake - I'm blaming TheGraveMind.

  4. Don't give up on the game. There aren't enough Xenos players as it is. Loosing streaks are no fun, so take a break, rethink your lists, and come back in a few weeks.

  5. I'm in a place recently where I'm not too excited about 40K as well. I think for me it has more to do with wanting to get and try things, but not having the funds to do so.

    plus, it seems like the game's stagnating a bit. Even with the new hotness.

    this too will pass, and soon I'll be chomping at the bit.

  6. @e66

    Are you local? I can play you with my SangGuard army sometime.

  7. @TGM

    Yeah, Farmpunk and I are feeling it too, even without the losing streak. 40K just seems so... joyless lately.

    A demo game at Adepticon got me hooked on Malifaux. I bought 2 crews and all of the rulebooks last week for $135. It's fun and pretty inexpensive compared to 40K. Farmpunk would probably be diving in too if he didn't have a Grey Knight army to update at the same time.

  8. In all honesty I think the problem is getting away from what made 40k so awesome to many of us to begin with.

    I know when I started tournaments were not well known and few and far between and the net was probably less well known than 40k. Both of these in my opinion have done so much good and bad for the game. Good in the sense that it has given birth to a much larger market which helps GW stay in business and bad that it has really taken the focus off of being a beer and wings kind of game.

  9. I like tournament play because of guys like Scotty Don't, Sandwyrm, Spag and a few others out there. I don't get a chance to play these guys that often and consider them to be challenging opponents and when I go to a tournament I hope everytime to play one of them. There is no holding back I want to wreck their world in the worst way possible and I am sure they want to do the same to me. I think we all want to know who's best and the one who wins is the best. Now after the game I don't care who won or who lost. If I won awesome if I lose I didn't measure up that day and so be it but I no longer think of them as my mortal enemy. :)

    The problem for me isn't that kind of playing as much as it is that kind of playing all the time. When you walk into a store how many guys are talking about their awesome list and can't wait to try it out or you read online about this list and that list. I feel like if you can't write your own lists then don't go to tournaments because you probably lack the skill to win anyway. But now I'm getting side tracked.

  10. I think what there needs to be more of are themed games and less focus on all comers lists. If your going to play two armies that one clearly has an advantage over let the weaker army have some extra points. The idea is have fun with the game. Playing even casual games can help you develop the skills to be a better tournament player. With these fun games you could do more with house rules and then all the frustrations about having an older codex or a stupid FAQ don't mean as much. The game is as awesome as you want it to be or as lame as you let get.

  11. As I said earlier there are guys out there whose worlds I would want to crush if I played them at a tournament or if we were playing our tournament lists mostly becuase the mentality is there at that point. However I would be just as happy to kick back have a beer and play a themed game driven by some sort of story and not care nearly so much about who's winning or losing. I think as a community that is what we should have more of. More fun sci-fi action than always focusing on "the rules" and trying to see who can bend them the most and stop playing every game with your all comers lists. If you prefer that method by all means keep doing it but don't feel like because that's what is the mainstream with 40k that you need to do it. I mean really we play 40k here guys we should all be used to being out of the mainstream and whats popular.

  12. With regards to the xenos side of things, I think Necrons will turn out to be quite strong and variable, but with GW's recent xenos record you never can be too sure. There may even be some nid as 'crons count as viable... I'm rarely excited about new codices but I seem to be with 'crons for some weird reason.

    With regards to other game systems. I like the models in hordes/warmachine and although the game mechanic is very different to 40k it still feels a bit 'samey'. I'd like to try out Malifaux, I know Venerable over on Sons of Sanguinius enjoys it and there are regular posts on his blog. As Sandy said, it's a very cheap system to play (relative to 40k) and the models are great.

    I was in a similar place to you for many years, but didn't do a great deal of hobbying as I didn't enjoy not reaping the rewards (playing with my toys). I think it's important to be involved in both aspects of the hobby to maintain a decent amount of interest.

  13. It's always good to have a backup game. Sometimes its nice to spend a couple of weeks playing Warmachine or FoW after a few bad games of 40K.

  14. I think in my case it's that I just want more personality, imagination, and variety from 40K/GW than I've been seeing. You can see that yearning in some of my recent posts.

    A large part of that is how Nids and Dark Eldar just aren't setting the world on fire like they should (or used to). I'm getting sick of always fighting power armor. The Grey Knight book is cool and all. But in the end it's just more marines. Bleh...

    Then I look at Flames of War and I see campaign-driven army lists. I mean, what if GW did that? You'd see something more akin to what Forge World does with it's imperial armor books. Instead of one IG or Marine codex, you'd see multiple books focusing on major conflicts. "And here we have the Armaggeddon book, with lists for all of the major forces that fought there, with 2-3 named characters for each and these cool unique units…". Lists would be smaller and more balanced.

    Then I look at Warmachine, Malifaux, and Dawn of War, where forces are built around cool characters that buff everything else. We get some of that now, but I really want things to go even more character-driven. Like Codex: Space Marines turned up to eleven. Different FOCs, different units. With a named Character leading EVERY army.

    More than anything though, GW just seems to lack any real sense of imagination right now. There's so much good fiction out there to draw from. So many good movies to steal tropes from. But the best they can do is recycle old GW stuff from Rogue Trader? Yeah, you can keep the orange monkeys.

    And on top of it all… the greed. Looking at the GK book, it's obvious that one of the design goals was to force GK players to buy all-new models. That's why the Halberds on Strike Squads are costed like they are. That's why BS3 "Stormtrooper" henchmen would cost 14 points for a BS3 model. If I could have used the models I already own for at least half the army, I'd have gladly spent the money to do GKs. As it was, I just traded what I had to Spaggy instead.

  15. The shine wears off any game system after a while. Play Fow or Warmachine for 4 years, and they'll have their own set of complaints.

  16. Gravemind - hey buddy. Yes, losing all the time sucks. Heck, that wraps up my first 3 years of 40k back in 2nd ed. But you get up, dust yourself off, and keep going.

    Personally, in the few times we've played at tournaments, I've had a great time. Not because of the outcome of the game, but because you're a hell of a guy, and we laughed at every stupid roll on the board. I'm gonna agree with CaulynDarr here, any other game will have plenty of flaws to become irritated with.

    So, Wanna break? Take one. Get some killer models ready that you want to play with -not because they can fly and instakill and have a weapon skill of 32. In my experience, if I love my army, it doesn't matter how well it fairs. I do my best and have a great time. (It is just a game you know)

  17. Gravemind,

    I was so excited about the new Tyranid codex, then I saw it, and then I put them away and have only played them because my son likes them. I am sorry GW did what they did. I am supriesed they haven't fixed them yet with all the complaints.

    You are a blast to play with!


    What is funny is I actually got into blogging because I realized I was being too competetive and needed to chill out A LOT! As Strung Muppet stated, with the increased adrenaline, and new found interest in blogging, I have found myself getting to that point again of being over competetive.

    I picked up the grey knights because I already had them and wanted a challenge with an elite army of less models. And you know what happened?

    I went back to what I have done with my space wolves, instead of running the elite army I wanted to, I designed my lists to win.

    I am sorry for that.

    I agree that we can still have the competition, but need to expand the horizons to more avenue's within our hobby.

  18. I'd like to say something, that I hope you guys take the right way and don't see it as a slam...because that's not my intention.

    You guys seem to always play the same "way".

    What do I mean by that? Well, it was hinted at in some earlier posts, but I've never heard you guys talk about playing Apocalypse.

    "Yeah, yeah,'s unbalanced, it's this, it's that, blah, blah, blah".

    No it's not. It's one of the more exciting ways to play 40K ever.


    Because you play to tell a story. Crazy stuff happens that you couldn't script if you tried. People have an amazing time.

    The catch? You have to put work into your game before you get to play. You have to plan. You have to select the right personalities, because in game "harmony" is just as important to the success of the game as playing. It's about fun, not that tournaments aren't fun, but it is completely different. I'll be so bold as to say, if you don't get in 2-3 Apoc games a year, you're cheating yourself. Seriously.

    It will completely change your perspective on 40K.

    So don't give up, do something a little different. You guys are one of my favorite blogs on the net. You are often times one of the few voices of reason in gaming and I think you make a great contribution to the community at large.

    It would be a shame to lose even one of you.


  19. I just want to thank everyone for responding.
    I am going to take a break from regular gaming, focus more on getting a well painted army and then come back and have fun with it.

    Spag, you can be as competitive as you want in my opinion, as long as you have fun.
    I'm a laid back kind of guy, so even playing for keeps is still a fun game for me most of the time. Right now it is just the fact that GKs feel like the new Nid Faq to me.

    I'll still be posting here, maybe not as frequently, but as often as I can. You might notice a shift to more hobby like articles, instead of my usual pseudo tacticas.

  20. Feth, bloody thing just ate my post... sigh.

    Short version...

    @ Sandwyrm

    Nids had the spotlight til the FAQ made about every other army more attractive in tournaments.

    DE will never be the most popular, because they take more work to get there. They're still the same Vet's army that they started as, and most people don't like going through as many losses as it takes to get a win.


    Correct, sir. With any luck, there will be some semblance of a report about a combined Eldar assault on an Orky city/bastion, using combined planetstrike/Apocalypse rules.

    @ TGM

    I think most of us have been there. Farmpunk's Purifier build (and really any Halberd heavy list) just about negates the ability of my Dark Eldar to do... yeah... anything. Honestly, that's why I took Nids to Kokomo. It's not fun being the red head stepchild.

    So take a break, if you need... step back (or over) to other aspects of the hobby. When you do game, try some different scenarios (3rd and 4th ed books are great resources, since they had more than 3 missions in them).

    Just come back swingin' :)


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