Wednesday, June 1, 2011

The actual bane of Grey Knights

by Spaguatyrine


So I played eldar for the first time with Runes of warding and Eldrad with my Grey Knights.  I played against a great player named Aaron. I mean who isn't cool that is named Aaron.......

We played capture and control with dawn of war.  He won the roll and decided to go first. I elected to roll everything on except my Nemisis dreadnight.  I am not giving a battle report, but I learned a few things about how the Grey Knights work with the Runes of Warding on the board: Very cautiously!  I was afraid to try my psychic abilities. The 2 times I tried them I passed but also took 1 perils due to double 1's and a 6.  I ended up winning the game anyways, but the runes of warding take out a lot of what the Grey Knights count on to make their small numbers multiply in effectiveness.  As I continue to play Grey Knights I can see more Eldar players showing up to try and chess mate the Grey Knights.




I also didn't realize until this game that the Avatar is a Daemon and that I wouldn't mind getting in close combat with him now. Of course if the runes of warding model is dead first! 

I am also now lobbying the eldar codex to get revised!!!!! LOL

Your thoughts?   

23 comments:

  1. Tyranid Shadows in the Warp can be a pain too. If the 'nid player is advancing synapse creatures with his gribblies.

    I still think the biggest PitA for GK's is probably WH inquisitors with hammer 'o witches and the unlimited range hood.

    though eldrag and his runes are a pain. I'm not going to deny that.

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  2. Runes of warding are by far the best psychic defense. They affect the whole board (including the inside of vehicles) and only cost 15 pts. Only Spag could reliably get 100% of his powers cast. Most of the time you fail and take a wound so you find yourself not casting anything and using your psycher as a vet sergeant or bullet catcher.
    The Avatar is still dangerous due to his t6 and I6. If you combat squad your knights he's still probably going to kill the 5 man and at 155 pts he'll likely make his pts back. The knights also rely on rending to take down armor but you don't get shooting rending against the wave serpents so they can be tough to take down.

    Overall the Eldar can match up fairly well against the gk's but its still a tough match for the space elves against anyone in power armor. I can't wait for the new codex either. At this point it can (almost) only be a good thing.

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  3. if you think knights have trouble against warding, you need to talk to more tyranid players.

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  4. Being unable to use Rending against Serpents doesn't matter, you only Rend on 6s and 7+6 = 13 anyways, so you don't need it.

    Psychic defense of any kind messes up GK because they rely heavily on their powers to shore up a lot of potential weaknesses. Eldar's speed also means they can selectively engage the GK, avoiding much of their firepower; it's not necessarily an uphill fight, but Eldar have some distinct advantages. (The GK, on the other hand, have a codex that doesn't suck. :P )

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  5. Phsychic defense is just becoming more and more important these days - I hardly ever play without at least a librarian somewhere in my army any more.

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  6. Unfortunately Ghost Helms make the most effective anti-psyker defense of the Grey Knights less effective. A Witchhunter Hood is only as good as his ability to hide, though. Mindstrike Missiles end the careers of Imperial Psykers quite efficiently.

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  7. It was a good game. And eminently winnable, if I had taken a more aggressive posture from the start.

    As a note, I had no grav tanks, only foot Eldar. I think it's actually a more powerful army in most ways. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that Eldar have a significant advantage over GKs, they certainly take away some of their seemingly endless options, leaving the poor GKs with only extra Strength weapons, 2+ save relentless troops, cheap and powerful close combat options, ubiquitous power weapons, flying Land Raiders, and loads of customisation + a MEQ statline to assuage their wounded pride.

    In all seriousness, the Eldar dominance of the psychic phase is almost unfair. It doesn't stand out so much because of the underlying weak statline, in much the same way that non-Marine armies can have many cool and powerful elements, but the weakness of the non-Marine statline always serves as a counterweight, while Marine armies with similar funkiness seem so much more powerful because they also fall back on MEQ stats and ATSKNF. In short, the Eldar powers are generally flavourful and not unbalancing, and while their psychic defence is probably excessive, they're still just space elves.

    Psychic powers are one (well, one of many) of the aspects of 40K that they have never managed to balance well. In some editions psychic powers are as game-changing as magic in Fantasy, and then in others they seem to want to tone it down, until a codex gets released with poorly thought out powers and suddenly psykers become gods again.

    At any rate, we'll play again soon, hopefully. I expected GKs to just roll over everything without even breaking an incredibly manly sweat, but after a look I think they're beatable. Or you can bring Space Wolves like you threatened, that's cool too. Never played against thunderwolf cav, I imagine it'll be ugly.

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  8. @Underdoc,

    It was great to play you finally. I appreciated the much needed test with the GK. You did an excellent job of covering your footdar to keep them alive.

    I want to get better with my GK so we can play again anytime. The Space Wolves are always ready for a fight, and they are not as easily quited down! :) LOL!!

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  9. Codex supersedes rulebook, you wouldn't of taken a perils of the warp when you did because with Runes of Warding you *only* take a perils if you roll 12 or above.

    The only thing Runes of Warding does to Grey Knight players is not allow them to do all the cool fancy stuff they don't really need to do anyway. The only power(s) they have that are even close to useful against Eldar is Hammerhand and Fortitude, neither of which are really necessary.

    Since you never really need to cast any powers against Eldar, don't, else I will laugh at you as you glance your own vehicles to death. Its really just that simple.

    Thunderwolf Cav vs Footdar? C'mon now, we all know how that will end.

    Some of what Underdoc says is hilariously true though, Eldar don't really give two shits about all the fancy Grey Knight stuff like fancy grenades, force weapons, extra cool psychic powers, etc - its just more shit that beats face in CC that is entirely unneeded against us 9 times out of 10. Ten basic GK dudes with Halberds is enough to scare the shit out of the Seer Council, THE Eldar "deathstar" if you choose to call it that lol.

    Truly, the greatest part of playing an army like Eldar is playing against armies like Space Wolves and Grey Knights, knowing they get "everything" while you get "nothing" and winning anyway. Feels awesome to know that in order to win, you have to outplay your opponents every time.

    Eldar's only saving grace against other people are volume of shots, maneuverability, and survivability. I don't see how squandering all of these in favor of foot equates a more powerful list, but I would have to see the build Underdoc plays to make a true judgement call.

    As for the final word of Grey Knights vs Eldar, I'll let the irony of this post's title combined with "I ended up winning the game anyways" speak for itself.

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  10. Without going too far into a discussion of Eldar lists, the value of footdar over mechdar is in volume. Sandwyrm refers to it in another thread as 'action vectors', and that's a good way of looking at it.

    40K is a volume game - the balance of power is heavily tilted in favour of lots of dice, lots of units that do not lose power despite their small size. Relying on a few quality rolls, even if the odds are good on all those rolls, is a high-risk strategy, and not a forgiving one. This is why Marine armies, especially ones with higher quality small units such as Wolves, BAs and GKs, are always more powerful lists, because they have MSUs that still retain lots of hitting power and quality because of customisation and options. Vanilla Marines are still good because they're Marines, but they lose a lot of quality in small units because they lack a lot of options (eg. 5 man bolter squads, no specials). Non-Marine armies that use MSUs are always vulnerable because of morale, weak armour, or both. Armies that rely on a few huge units are generally weaker because they lack volume of actions, and because of the risk involved with losing them. Powerful deathstar armies such as Thunderwolf cav work because they're a) Marines, and b) because the rest of the army can consist of MSUs with high quality without losing any power, such as 15 missile launchers with 3-6 actions for not a lot of points.

    For Eldar, the Wave Serpent is good, but so expensive that if you run a mech army, your actions are limited. Your Serpents don't do much but try to live, and the passengers are also limited due to no firing ports, no assault options, and fragility. DAVU vehicles have limited effect on the enemy, Fire Dragon MSUs work fine once, but are one shot weapons that hope to trade their points for greater value in damage and/or tactical position. Footdar, on the other hand, give up some speed for a lot more actions and consequently a lot more punch. They aren't really less survivable, especially in 5th ed where people bring huge amounts of antitank and comparatively little antitroop.

    We all know power codices such as Wolves, BA, GK and Guard are better. That's beyond question. However, I would back footdar with at least an even chance against pretty much any top tier list, especially at the more balanced levels of 1500 pts or so. I think GKs are eminently beatable. I haven't tried thunderwolf cav, but I know deathstar armies are beatable. The only one that I think may be near impossible would be IG parking lot, if it gets first turn. Other than that, though, I think footdar is very viable, and quite probably more effective than mechdar. It's certainly underrated.

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  11. I personally think your analysis is wrong, Underdoc, but I will leave it at that.

    For example, I don't understand the statement of Footdar having "more punch", for instance at 1500 the list I regularly play has 80 str 6 shots, many of them TL'ed. I don't trade "punch" for armor and greater maneuverability, I simple have the best of both. I have a hard time seeing where your "punch" comes from without Warwalkers, Falcons, Wave Serpents and other assorted models.

    Serpents do plenty for Eldar, despite the steep cost. Tank shocking, ease of contesting, survivability, speed-bumping people, anti-infantry threat, and one of our only sources of a TL Bright Lance. Hell, ask anyone who plays against me how many games I win through tank shocking alone.

    I am a firm disbeliever in Footdar being a good army, but again without seeing your list I can't make any firm calls.

    For the record, this is the list I regularly play at 1500:

    HQ: 145 pts
    Farseer with Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Guide, Doom

    Elites: 410 pts
    5 Fire Dragons
    Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
    5 Fire Dragons
    Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

    Troops: 555 pts
    5 Dire Avengers
    Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
    5 Dire Avengers
    Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
    5 Dire Avengers
    Wave Serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

    Fast Atack: 210 pts
    1 Vyper with Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
    1 Vyper with Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
    1 Vyper with Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

    Heavy Support: 180 pts
    1 Warwalker with Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser
    1 Warwalker with Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser
    1 Warwalker with Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser

    1500 pts

    Taken straight from YTTH, I started playing 40K with this list, it has served me well indeed.

    Could you post your list Underdoc, so I can see what you talk about regarding "action vectors" and having more "punch"?

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  12. In that game, I used:

    Avatar
    Eldrad

    7 Harlequins (5x Kisses, 1x Shadowseer w/- Kiss + Fusion Pistol, 1x Troupe Master w/- Power Weapon + Fusion Pistol)
    5 Fire Dragons

    10 Guardians, Brightlance
    10 Guardians, Brightlance
    10 Guardians, ML
    5 Dire Avengers
    5 Pathfinders

    Wraithlord (Brightlance, ML)
    3x War Walkers (2x Scatter Lasers)

    It's probably not optimal - the Pathfinders are a weak spot, and I could drop those for something else, but I like pathfinders. I'm going to try dropping the Avengers and Dragons for 4 Wraithguard, which I think will be a better list, but this one has done well.

    I could talk about wins and so on, but that's not really going to convince you it's a good army either. That's cool - I'd rather people didn't think it was a good army, because it is, and being underestimated is awesome.

    I also think the spammy YTTH style lists are good to start with, because they follow a simplistic list design that has a clearly outlaid playstyle. That said, they're weaker lists - the design deliberately limits options in favour of repeating the most 'efficient' units. I realise this isn't a popular opinion in the world of 40K, but I've found that the spammy lists just aren't as good. And they're definitely less fun to play.

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  13. Point for Underdoc!!! I like this back and forth! I have played both types and they both have their merits. The footdar list definitely gets less respect and can easily help someone think it will be an easy battle and then it isn't. When you play mechdar, you know what you have to do.

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  14. "I could talk about wins and so on, but that's I I could talk about wins and so on, but that's not really going to convince you it's a good army either."

    You are 100% correct, in fact, you bragging about your wins would only do the opposite.

    My playtesting regiment consists of what I can regularly play against, which for the most part is Andrew Hartley playing Nids, Brodrick with Dark Eldar, Lucas Alexander playing Mech Guard with all the trimmings, and various mech Space Wolf playing people. I am either nearly 50-50 w/l against these people or have more wins under my belt that losses.

    That all should mean nothing to you though. I have been around the 40K block enough times to know that when people brag about their wins, their wins are nothing to brag about 99% of the time. This is exactly why I never bring my w/l record up and why I tell people that it literally means nothing. When I read the words "I am undefeated with ____" or see someone talk about their w/l rations then read the battle reports against very sub-par armies with bad tactics and rules knowledge, I am left shaking my head.

    Simplistic list design? I knew what 85% of your list was before you even posted it, the 5 Dire Avengers did surprise me though. The major problem with footdar (as there is only really 1 footdar list) is that it presents very easy target priority, the scary lists of today (which is all I play against for the most part) can and will kill any single unit they want (baring the Seer Council and perhaps Fateweaver) in one turn. Once your Warwalkers and Wraithlords are gone, how do you kill mech or infantry from range? please don't say your BS3 Bright Lances or Fire Dragons with no ride.

    To add insult to injury, modern deathstars will see your "trap" of guided Warwalkers and Harlequins with Doom, run straight into it, and walk away victorious. I honestly don't know what you would do against horde Orks, mass Thunderwolf Cav, Grey Knight psy-spam, or mass FNP jumper Blood Angels. Oh and the problem with Guard that you think you might have.

    I know the "simplistic list design that has a clearly outlaid playstyle" works because I have beaten all of the above with what I use, and have generally placed in the top 5 of nearly every tournament I have ever been to. You think your style works because...?

    Less fun to play? I have a ball playing that list, why do you think I have been playing it for over a year? Because I am paid to do so?

    If all I wanted to do was win every game all the time why would I be screwing around with Eldar lol? I would be playing some 5th ed Imperial army like all the rest of them.

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  15. Hey, I'm not dissing your 40K knowledge or skills at all. Clearly you know what you're talking about, and you must be a pretty good player, because to win with the list you posted has to take some ability, since I'm not totally sure what it would be able to beat. Rhino Rush, I guess. Mad props for doing well with it - I know I don't think I could do well with that list. I might try it sometime to challenge myself.

    In any case, I think my style works because it does. That's really all I can say on it. It's okay if people think the list sucks - it doesn't win games because it's popular. Talking about w/l records doesn't convince anyone, as I said.

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  16. I'm not asking for respect, I don't deserve it. I am also not looking for validation regarding 40K, as I know I am not a good player, I lose way too many games due to stupid mistakes (like forgetting to cast Fortune eh Hartley lol) to be considered "good".

    Sorry about the rant, it wasn't meant to come off so "vs you", its really just pent up nerd rage vs people who talk like their shit don't stink online when 80% of what the play against isn't worth talking about.

    I don't know what to say if you cannot see how I beat other armies with my list. I can torrent the Long Fangs from range (killing an average of a squad in a half a turn at 36"), I can perma-stun Vendettas and get side shots on Chimeras with my movement. You can do none of these from what I can see. I see a Wraithlord and the Warwalkers all biting it turn one from most decent SW/IG lists then things going downhill fast.

    You are right though, I don't see how your style works, I guess I would have to see it to believe it. Whenever a battle report is posted with you playing against an optimized 5h ed Imperial army I'll be sure to pay attention.

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  17. I assure you, Aaron's GK are an "optimized 5th ed Imperial army."

    We've also had Footdar players do well at our tournaments. Footdar+Footdar won our team tournament last year, beating Scott and Carl, who also play top-end Imperial armies (Vulkan + BA) very well.

    No offense, but in an effort to suggest Underdoc is sounding like "one of those internet people" who brag about their W/L (which he really wasn't) you're very quickly starting to sound like "one of those internet people" who tell you that anything but Mech IG and MSU Space Wolves is unplayable at a tournament level.

    Playing Daemons makes you very familiar with that sentiment, and I understand exactly what Underdoc is talking about when he says it's often beneficial to go into a game where your opponent underestimates your army from the start.

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  18. You are right, I am starting to sound like one of those "internet people", for that I apologize. However, when talking about armies and how to beat them, what better armies to talk tactics vs than the ones all the "internet people" say are the cream of the crop? I was just trying to find common ground, no slights intended.

    Just like I don't use my W/L record as a way of saying my list and I or whatever is good, I rarely use tournaments either. I know most 40K tournaments are 3 rounds in which you play seals twice in a row, then play an actual good player in the finals. I have heard various players complain when they have to play good players all day lol. This isn't me saying "obvious all the tournaments where footdar won where filled with bad players with bad lists" so don't take it that way.

    Fatecrusher Daemons is dangerous, especially if your army isn't constructed well and lacks the torrent of fire or weight of assault to kill Fateweaver than the surrounding army the turn he comes in. I have played against Fatecrusher before myself and was fortunate enough to kill Fateweaver in one turn. I might not be so lucky next time.

    Footdar I believe is only annoying, I don't believe it is dangerous. All I am asking for as far as "proof" is a battle report where Footdar plays against an optimized 5th ed Imperial army and wins, or hell even lose. I have seen them before on BOLS get tabled by Space Wolves etc. If you really want to see how I play against such lists I would be happy to provide a battle report of my army within a week or so, whether I win or lose.

    You are right Dodger3 (we met at the Kokomo tournaments btw, I was the Seer Council player), Aaron's Grey Knight army is nasty at 1500. The thing is though, there was no battle report and Footdar lost. There was also lack of rules knowledge on the point of the perils.

    I just don't want to see a battle report like the last time I got into a Footdar argument wherein the guy posted a BR of him reserving his Wraithlords then casting Fortune on them as proof of them not dying turn 1, what a LOL that was.

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  19. I am one of those guys that believes the army or codex your using doesn't decide whether you win or lose. I think that it more or less falls into the hands of the player. Given proper time a good player can and will learn how to play any given army. So I guess what I'm saying is footdar and mechdar are equally crap builds in the hands of the wrong person. Or they are both competitive in the hands of the right person.

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  20. It's true that I lost that game to GKs, but that was primarily due to two factors: 1) my taking a defensive rather than aggressive posture from the start, and 2) me being a noob and forgetting a whole turn of shooting.

    The Perils rule with RoW may indeed be as you say, but on the same turn as he took a Perils, the Librarian also failed three invuln saves from the Troupe Master and bit it, so it didn't really affect things overall. My forgetting a turn of shooting was rather more impactful, I think. Speculating what may have happened with that always has a certain margin of error, but the odds were very high that I would have killed the Dreadknight on that turn or the next, which would have allowed me to tie the game on objectives, and then I would have had more KPs, if you were to take it that far.

    Or maybe none of that would have happened, who knows. Still, you can't forget a turn of shooting and win. That said, the army didn't forget the turn, and thus the army did fine, and did enough to win - they just lacked a good enough player.

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  21. @underdoc,

    The army had a good player. You forgot something just as I did. It happens. Footdar at 1500 are potent no matter what someone else says. I had fun against you. I have never played Meister Kai, but if he ever gets to the top tables at some tournaments we will get a game in. LOL!! Just kidding!!!

    But the point that Scotty made is correct. You also play marines and could have easily have pulled them out to throw down.

    At Meister Kai, it is coming across a little snootish but that is cool. Eldar armies are difficult to play and you both have a lot of skill with them. You just play different styles of armies. It's all good! Have fun and play them differently!

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  22. And as you follow my posts on Grey Knights I have been pretty clear that They have been super successful against every army so far except certain styles of Guard armies.

    And Dodger3 of course.

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  23. Heh played a fun game as Chaos similar to this but a little weaker that well vs the Tin Knights:

    Kharn (Too fun and can't be force weapon killed)
    Chaos dread (TW Las, Missile Launcher)
    Chaos dread (TW Las, Missile Launcher)
    x5 Chosen x4 Plasma gun, rhino with combi melta

    x9 zerks + PF Skull Champ, x3 Plas Pistol,rhino with combi melta
    x10 CSM with MoCG Plasma Gun/Melta Gun, rhino with combi melta
    x10 CSM with MoCG Plasma Gun/Melta Gun, rhino with combi melta

    x5 Havocs (4 Plas Gun, MoCG), rhino with combi melta
    x5 Havocs (4 Plas Gun, MoCG), rhino with combi melta
    x5 Havocs (4 Plas Gun, MoCG), rhino with combi melta

    "Kwuantity is better'n Qwality" - Warboss Stallin

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