tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post4099078740712809322..comments2024-02-16T18:32:38.635-05:00Comments on The Back 40K: Snortin' the good stuff...Farmpunkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09622091234212120598noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-37367849657906893312011-09-25T20:06:22.899-04:002011-09-25T20:06:22.899-04:00@ Rhionnay
The only thing I said at the start of ...@ Rhionnay<br /><br />The only thing I said at the start of the article was how I wrote this in response to someone telling me they shouldn't have won against a few terminators.<br /><br />Unless you're referring to the "rockstar" comment, in which case it's also side-noted that that's in-so-far as basic troops go. Not Thunderwolf style units.Anonymous Foodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14362829012549159278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-5295473575130276992011-09-25T17:43:47.522-04:002011-09-25T17:43:47.522-04:00@Theneverthere, you sir are a clown. Finding the p...@Theneverthere, you sir are a clown. Finding the pdf and looking it up isnt hard. Now as I was saying a raider of wyches shouldn't get across the field that's the fault of the opponent. on the cost issue I was not including a raider. I was including a leader, agoniser, blast pistol and 10 witches if you see the need go with a phantasm grenade launcher. I suggest you think about the defensive grenades. That will for sure give you the edge you need. Now then if you have any other issues with what I said please I would respect you knowing what you were talking about. <br /><br />For everyone killing 30 orks and 10 man gretchin squad isn't rough nor hard. Wyches can crank out ton of attackes it's not hard to kill a unit that you're going first hitting them on 3's and they don't get saves. . .ok yes a 6+ is a save but really. As a tyranid player let me tell you how many 6+s I make. . .few to none. <br /><br />@Foodie, please remember you are talking to another xenos player :-) I understand and see that they need support. I think it would be better to write about HOW you plan on supporting them than trying to put the unit on a pedestal. At the start of your article you really were trying to make wyches sound like the linebreaker of DE. . .sadly you understand they are not. I'm simply saying wyches should be a tad bit better. Allow them to have hit and run or counter attack. Yes counter attack would work for me. :-)<br /><br />I am suggesting a "how wyches work" article instead of a "wyches are cool look they kill 3 marines a turn. . .right?"Rionnayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02859889620624684273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-84143141523571004722011-09-25T13:37:14.061-04:002011-09-25T13:37:14.061-04:00Rionnay, Yes stuff dies really fast with DE. I lo...Rionnay, Yes stuff dies really fast with DE. I look forward to the challenge of learning the DE army. Yes they will die faster than MEQ, but that is the fun of it!Spaguatyrinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09459803772469387289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-73647384160635344712011-09-25T09:37:41.593-04:002011-09-25T09:37:41.593-04:00@ Rhionnay
Not nearly enough characters allowed t...@ Rhionnay<br /><br />Not nearly enough characters allowed to answer all of those as much as they deserve, so we'll have to settle with the short version.<br /><br />If you're going to tell me that part of my army automatically doesn't work, despite my tactics, I'll just say the same to you. We can both pretend like we're 8, it'll be fun.<br /><br />Marines in cover? I'll just use my free grenades.<br /><br />Terminators/BAssalterines/other units that are way harder to kill for anything than basic Marines... I'll use other parts of my army to support my Wyches. As T_K_E loves to point out, they're not a linebreaker. It's true, they're not a kill-all beatstick. They're a 10-point troop. <br /><br />There is a definite limit as to what I'll throw them at and expect to have a positive yield.<br /><br />Not good enough? You're entitled to your opinion. But again, I never said they were an end-all beat stick. DE don't have one, actually. Nob Bikers, ThunderCav... we don't have that style of unit. Unless maybe you count an Archon with a Huskblade that's already Soultrapped something. 6 S6 attacks that insta-gibb on touch? Sure.<br /><br />Dark Eldar (like their wayward cousins) instead rely on supporting each other, using superior speed to outmaneuver and overcome the foe.Anonymous Foodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14362829012549159278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-75289830510896028782011-09-25T04:12:03.453-04:002011-09-25T04:12:03.453-04:00Actually, the Wyches (10, Haywires, Hekatrix, Agon...Actually, the Wyches (10, Haywires, Hekatrix, Agoniser, Raider, Flickerfield) are 5 points more expensive than Tacticals (10, Melta [should be flamer], missile [should be multi-melta] rhino, dozer blade) - so let's stop pretending we aren't comparing like for like here. <br /><br />TheGraveMind almost makes a good point - except that it misses mine entirely. Wyches simply don't have the quality to act as a linebreaker, so their stats on the charge, as well as being underwhelming, are somewhat irrelevant when we discuss them in the role they can perform - not what this article (ostensibly) aims to do.<br /><br />Apart from Rionnay being off on cost, spot on.<br /><br />Da Warboss - maybe, but only if you don't need that to pull double-duty as your only ranged anti-tank. Oh, you do? Ah.<br /><br />TheNeverThere almost requires a dissertation to show where and how he's wrong, but iu've already covered cost.let's just mention anecdotes, briefly - they mean nothing. This is a dice game. Shit happens. Regardless, Orks have no save, and suffer from being rolled by Fearless, especially when you have a weaker unit to butcher and modify combat res ridiculously in your favour! You would RATHER fight both unbits in CC at the same time!!!<br /><br />Apologies for typoes, doubtless there are many, typing on my phone.TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-89808776663488592202011-09-25T01:43:56.083-04:002011-09-25T01:43:56.083-04:00Don't forget that wyches at I6 will strike eve...Don't forget that wyches at I6 will strike even before Ragin BAs on the charge, so that means fewer attacks comin' back at you.<br /><br />Also, I see Rionnay hasn't read the codex. Otherwise he'd know that Wyches come standard with assault grenades, so cover is a moot point. Also, he'd know that 10 wyches are are actually 75 points cheaper than melta-missile marines. That's a huge difference compared to that 30-50. You only hit that 30-50 range once you start gearing up the wyches. And ANOTHER THING! Saying the Raider doesn't count as a means of transportation for Wyches? Alright then. If we're gonna take core concepts out of our armies, you can only use Scouts in your marines. No Power Armor for you! See how dumb that sounds? Also, when you start comparing wyches to Thunder Cav and Termies. Well DUH wyches are gonna have a rough time. Termies are ELITES and Thunder Cav, well we all know about those things. Of COURSE wyches, simple 10 points a pop Troops are gonna get rolled. That's like comparing a Predator to a Rhino! Besides, what DE player worth his drugs leave his transports without at least the 5+ Flicker? I mean, even the sturdier Chimeras and Rhinos tend to pop smoke on the first turn, and Raiders do it better cause they can get that 4+ cover and move 24" on turn 1, getting their precious knives more than halfway to the chopping block.<br /><br /><br />Now that that's done, an example of wyches shining is when a 10-man squad of my wyches took down both a 30-strong Ork Boy squad with Claw-Nob, AND a 10-man Gretchin squad at the same time in only 2 rounds of combat. And that's without any help from drugs (I'd rolled a one, so they ran fast that game).TheNeverTherehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00546704663653589055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-40075901645565308512011-09-25T00:32:50.832-04:002011-09-25T00:32:50.832-04:00They don't need to be the rock when you have s...They don't need to be the rock when you have some much AP 2 fire. Make them terminators, and the whole DE concept (and balance) go right out the window40K + T&Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09058918571922538449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-24431311161713265722011-09-24T23:53:52.463-04:002011-09-24T23:53:52.463-04:00@Foodie, I enjoyed the article it was a good lesso...@Foodie, I enjoyed the article it was a good lesson on how to mathhammer if people haven't done it. However, I have a few things to point out. One is for your arguement and two are challenging it. <br /><br />A: compare the points costs also please 10marines, missile melta/ 10wyches with your workings. I am guessing it's safe to say that the wyches come out 30-50 points cheaper than the marines. <br /><br />B: Please tell me how you are getting 10 wyches across the field safely. No sir the word "raider" will not work. An observant or intelligent player will shoot incubi/wyche/warrior raiders in that order most the time. Raider rush isn't hard to deal with so how are you getting the raiders there? <br /><br />C: what happens if the marines are in cover, do you have cover, will rapid fire bolters scare you if you aren't in a transport? I suggest a grenade launcher you're already coming out ahead on the points side of thing add a Torment launcher. <br /><br />Are Wyches bad, no. But can they really handle something like a squad of grey hunters who just rapid fired bolters into them as the marines sit in a crater or forest, sadly no. Many may say I'm telling superman to swallow kryptonite and not die, so I'll give a few other examples. <br /><br />-assault marines- move faster and have tons of attacks also if BA have FnP<br /><br />-terminators- be it 5 or 10 terminators that's still a ton of power weapon attacks. Yes the witches should get the charge here though, terminators other than shrike termis, are slow and easy to see coming. <br /><br />- Hormogants, warriors, termagants- these units can either match you in speed, fnp, or shoot you on their way in. warriors crank a ton of attacks out along with a heavy weight of shots. <br /><br />-Thunderwolves- What are your plans here? needing roughly 6's to wound and more than likely being charge since they have a better range than you do. Tossing just as many attacks as you have at you. Sure they're expensive but those wyches hurt you more than just losing a squad they let those thunderwolves get in range of the rest of your army slingshotting them forward. <br /><br />The point I'm making is they aren't good enough. Wyches should of been that close combat rock that every codex tries to have. Retort with your "well incubi. . ." well, incubi are expensive and draw a ton of fire. Can wyches kill marines? Sure, but that's not saying much. Torrent fire from warriors can do that, venoms can do it, helions can do it. I will give some ground though and say:<br /><br />-cheap at 10 points a guy. . .uhhh girl<br />-5-15 man squads is nice<br />-a blast pistol gives them a little diversity<br />-tons of weapon options. <br /><br />These few things do help them, yet the wyches just need a tad bit more.Rionnayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02859889620624684273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-74431950534876979282011-09-24T20:55:23.109-04:002011-09-24T20:55:23.109-04:00Nice! Thank you Foodie. Do more! Do MOre! I have...Nice! Thank you Foodie. Do more! Do MOre! I have began to piece together my army. I have a unit of helions, a battleforce, and a unit of warriors. I like these comparisons. Can you do HQ's next please?Spaguatyrinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09459803772469387289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-12200595094807856992011-09-24T19:50:28.132-04:002011-09-24T19:50:28.132-04:00Well the main point is you want your assault units...Well the main point is you want your assault units hitting their soft units. It is a stupid move to try and assault his assault units, that's what shooting is for.<br /><br />Dakka the choppa and choppa the dakka.TheGraveMindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02202256201375802641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-75265792961039167642011-09-24T13:40:00.220-04:002011-09-24T13:40:00.220-04:00@ Brother Loring
The .75 was a math note to mysel...@ Brother Loring<br /><br />The .75 was a math note to myself that I forgot to take out >.<. Thanks for the catch, got it edited out.Anonymous Foodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14362829012549159278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-61599642252764398802011-09-24T13:20:43.671-04:002011-09-24T13:20:43.671-04:00Sorry - I wasn't clear enough I guess, in that...Sorry - I wasn't clear enough I guess, in that I don't consider Assault Marines Dedicated Assault Units either. Any Assault Unit that needs help or time to beat an enemy line unit (and Tacs are ofc a good baseline) is by definition bad.<br /><br />The fact that the game mechanics are angled away from close combat doesn't help - but most CC units are actually horribly underpowered.TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-56561040108669728642011-09-24T13:07:02.035-04:002011-09-24T13:07:02.035-04:00What does the .75 in this line mean? ...
"Wy...What does the .75 in this line mean? ...<br /><br />"Wyches charging 10 Marines (Sgt, Pistol/CCW) .75"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-15468466622774512392011-09-24T13:06:00.313-04:002011-09-24T13:06:00.313-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-76486530945678906962011-09-24T13:05:29.361-04:002011-09-24T13:05:29.361-04:00I used Marines as the example because "Can it...I used Marines as the example because "Can it tackle Marines" is still the largely accepted bar.<br /><br />You'll also note that I did compare them to assault marines, for just this reason.<br /><br />Wyches charging assault marines (or space wolves, etc) will still come out ahead by a bit. It'd take a bit more work than I'm willing to do at just this moment to figure out the full drawn-out combat, but the idea is that the Wyches rely on higher Initiative to get in a couple more kills each round, reducing the attacks coming at them.Anonymous Foodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14362829012549159278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-13463750105701409172011-09-24T13:00:32.101-04:002011-09-24T13:00:32.101-04:00Sorry, while the article is written amusingly, the...Sorry, while the article is written amusingly, the fundamental premise is flawed. I can use exactly the same reasoning to make Howling Banshees look incredible.<br /><br />I would posit that a Dedicated Combat Unit wants to be able to beat another army's line troops either on the charge (obviously not ideal tactically, because of the fact they'll be shot to death) or in the second combat phase.<br /><br />Wyches narrowly win out in the first round, before ending up, what 4 phases against high Ld/Fearless/Stubborn foes here?<br /><br />I like Wyches, and am not ragging on them or you, but this is poor analysis of the unit.TheKing Elessarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04981821487098781957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-79444177188262836102011-09-24T11:59:46.076-04:002011-09-24T11:59:46.076-04:00The problem is you're comparing a dedicated cl...The problem is you're comparing a dedicated close combat unit with limited utility to a tactical squad. I'd be shocked if the Wyches weren't better than the marines.Nikephoroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14484058926496438148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-60613350913453688322011-09-24T11:07:28.690-04:002011-09-24T11:07:28.690-04:00Either way Wyches are a nasty tarpit. Send them at...Either way Wyches are a nasty tarpit. Send them at hammernators or a psyfleman. Wyches are great. :)Kinsmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04470818874100718617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4519319818452068646.post-9290046194716241292011-09-24T11:04:22.284-04:002011-09-24T11:04:22.284-04:00Seconded, wyches are defo cool.
Drugs are cool, I...Seconded, wyches are defo cool. <br />Drugs are cool, I don't care what they tell you in school :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com