Frostycon official announcement.
When: February 15th and optional 16th 2nd day team tournament event
Where: Gamerz http://www.meetup.com/
Tournament Organizer: Aaron Aleong, Spaguatyrine
What:
*Torrent of Fire Ranking System- TOF will be used to update your national player ranking.
*32 player 1 day rouge trader tournament with a second day optional team tournament
*4 rounds plus 1 final round to determine undefeated winner (If needed)
*2nd day optional 2 person team tournament.(1000 pts stand alone list without allies) 3 rounds with battle points. (only $5 per player)
*1500 points-All current codex's will be allowed. No expansion, data slates, or apocolypse units will be allowed.
*The rules for Stronghold assault will be allowed except for the following:
*Anything with a void shield or D weapon will not be allowed (NO Fortress of redemption's)
*No AV 15 will be allowed-all debris and ugrades available.
*Fortifications are 0-1 for all players
*Players must have their own set of rules for all to read
*Competitive Restrictions-All Re-rolls of failed saves will be limited to a 4+.
*Prices-$16 for Pre-registration. $21 day of tournament.
2nd day optional team tournament $5 per player. (Singles welcomed-will randomly pair up)
*Awards-Over $500 in prizes for: Best General, Second to one, Best Overall(includes paint scores 50% paint 50% battle score), Best Painted and Runner up, 3rd place, 4th place, Last Place, and other random prizes. (Pending on amount of players in the event)
*Top 8 will be invited to the 2014 Indiana 40k championship Grand Tournament in November of 2014.
*Best General will be immortalized as the first FrostyCon champion on the Trophy below and receive free entry into the 40k championship tournament to crown the 2014 Champion and best player in Indiana.
*Top 2 teams in the team tournament will split the pot for winnings.
*FAQ-We will use the current Nova FAQ.
*Missions-Missions will be posted via facebook, theback40k blog, and on the Gamerz website by January 15th, 2014.
Pre Register Here
Spots are filling up! Get yours!
Schedule:
Saturday 15th-Frostycon
Registration 8:30 am to 9:00 am
Game 1: 9-11
Break 30 minutes-Lunch available at gamerz
Game 2: 11:30-1:30
Break 15 minutes
Game 3: 1:45-3:45
Break 15 minutes
Game 4: 4:00-6:00 pm
Break 30 minutes-(Dinner for top two)
Awards 6:15-6:45
Game 5: 6:45-8:45pm. (final two only) (Open gaming tables)
Sunday 16th-Team Tournament
Register 9:30-10:00 am
Round 1:10-12:30pm
Lunch break 30 minutes
Round 2 1:00-3:30pm
Break 15 minutes
Round 3:45-6:15pm
Awards 6:30
What exactly has everyone balls deep in teenage angst about re-rolled saves? I'm asking honestly, mind you - I know there's some trick with deamons that apparently makes it ridiculous, but I don't know where that actually comes from. As is, changing re-rolls nerf's the Mantle of the Laughing God (a very not-cheap unique piece of gear that likewise restricts what the character can take), and if I get lucky and roll Fortune on my allied 'Seer, now casting it on my Archon (which takes a lot of work to pull off, as said 'Seer can't jump in Sr Archon's boat) much closer to pointless than the amount of work requires. Actually that pretty much nullifies Fortune as a 2 Warp Charge power. For T3 nubbies, going from a 3+ to a 4+ is a *big* deal.
ReplyDeleteI get that certain things are tournament-broken. I do not get why uber-bans are being made across the board, instead of on the *one thing* that is actually the problem.
Aside from that, I approve of laughing away D weapons and certain other "Oh this is *totally* legit in 40k" things that GW has... for whatever reason... thought to be a good idea.
Not sure u totally get what exactly your question is.
DeleteThe only comp restrictions are re-rolls. If you dont know the grimoire + forewarning + fateweaver = 2++ rerollables.
I don't get my question?....
DeleteSo is this a 2++ just on Fateweaver? Or is it spread around the army? Or... what?
I know FW has a 3++ re-roll base. What I don't know is exactly how what wargear in what combination allows for the 2++, and how many models get it (or otherwise hilarious saves).
My point, is that this restriction, which is basically in place only because of this Deamon combination, seems to unfairly effect other units that benefit from re-roll mechanics. Eldar being the biggest supply. Mantle'd HQ's are only T4 at best, so weapons that ignore cover (from flamers to S6 IG blasts) are wounding fairly easily. If a Seer gets Fortune, likely the best he's doing is casting it on himself and his Warlocks, for a 3+ re-roll... are Marines, even with a re-roll, that hard to take down that you have to ban it? AP3 knocks that problem out of the water (well, you still have a 4+ re-roll, but still).
At worst, you're looking at a Fortuned Archon, but my point there is that it's tactically difficult to pull it off with good timing. So really in a tournament setting, you're looking at a Fortuned Beast Pack (with Baron). And T3 models.
Is that what's scary? Or it is *just* the T6 (or is he higher?) Deamon Lord thingy of doom?
If the problem is Fateweaver, then institute a fix that is directed at Fateweaver. If the problem is the combo of him and some gear, fix the gear. I don't see a reason to side-nerf other units that aren't the actual problem.
Unless space elves are the problem.
As spag mentions, The Divination power that gives a unit 4++ is cast on a fast unit such as Screamers, and then the deamon relic increases that to a 2++ while the tzeetch rule allows rerolls of 1s giving them the reroll. Fateweaver is there to garantee it goes off.
DeleteEldar can also have a large jet bike squad, a warlock can increase them to 2+ armor or 2+ cover easily, and then a farseer can give them rerolls.
The problem is when units that are fast (jetbikes) get a rerollable 2+ save, it makes them near invincible, and they can be practically anywhere they need to be. And there is almost no way of stopping them as they are codex supported and psyker defense has become negligible in game.
I think you are missing the 6th edition versions of daemons, and fortuned seer councils, etc. The daemon unit is called screamer star and is 9 two wound screamers with 4 two wound level 3 psykers. The entire unit basically has 2++ rerollable saves. It is nearly unkillable. Yes eldar are affected slightly along with de but the community is pretty clear they are acceptive of this.
ReplyDeleteA list which, as you very well know, has won absolutely zero major tournaments.
DeleteYou'll drown in Wraithknights and Riptides, just like everywhere else, with the only difference being you've told a segment of people that they can't bring their armies and set yourself up to take the blame when people complain about why you didn't ban something else once you decided to start banning to things.
Comp doesn't work in 40k. It's just a race to the next-most-broken thing, with it now being the TO's fault that that thing was allowed. The guy who loses to the triple-Wraithknight, standard Taudar, or whatever else in the first round will just ask you why you didn't ban that.
It's a pretty short road until you arrive at GP Lafayette territory, where special characters weren't allowed because Carlos didn't like them, and everyone thought it was hilarious. That's comp in 40k; one person getting rid of the specific thing they dislike, but not resulting in a balanced game, just a slightly different unbalanced game--because 40k will never be balanced.
Dodger,
DeleteYou can bring whatever you want. That hasn't changed. These are the agreed upon rules set by the leadership team. This is mild compared to the other restrictions I am talking to other TO's about.
I'm with Dodger on this one. Comp never works, especially in 40K. You just end up with different imbalances. Which the top players figure out how to game, and the casual/average players get blindsided by. Making the spread between the 'winners' and 'losers' even wider.
DeleteYou especially shouldn't change any core game mechanics. That's just asking for trouble. Because there's no way to make sure that everyone knows ahead of time, or that someone doesn't throw a hissy-fit on the day of the event to try and wrangle an exception.
So are you dropping the restriction to 1-2 HQ, 2-6 troop, 0-3 FA, HS and EL?
ReplyDeleteYes that is correct. The foc restriction was removed
ReplyDeleteHere's my point.
ReplyDeleteA near-guaranteed re-rollable 2++ on an entire unit of super-fast, uber-shooty death monsters is... yes. Pretty stupid. And probably shouldn't be there. This is something that should be addressed.
A unit that relies on a single-wound Ld8 psyker rolling a random power and *not* failing test that allows, in tandem with *yet another* random roll for a 2 Warp Charge power....
Sigh... do we see where I'm going with this yet? Even if you want to restrict re-rolled 2++'s that's one thing... but every other save has weapons specifically designed to get around them. Shoot, a single Manticore can drop that entire seer council in one fell swoop (theoretically).
End point - the problem is with the Deamon Book and how it interacts with FW/Tzeentch Deamons. Address that. Otherwise, yes, you *are* limiting what people can take, because you're nullifying units out of armies that don't deserve it. Be honest, if you were going to a tournament with Necrons, and the TO said "well, Reanimation Protocols have been decided by the leadership to be unfair, so it's out", are you going to smile and say "Yeah, that's cool, I'm still allowed to bring my Necrons" or are you going to say "Okay, but I'll be bringing a different army".
Larger scale change, same principle.
Be careful when you cherrypick rules. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, because there are things in the game that just aren't balanced. But there is likely to be at least some blowback no matter what you do.
Foodie,
DeleteNo offense, but you don't have any understanding of how the unit you're referencing functions. Literally every limitation you provided regarding Seer Councils applies to Screamerstars as well, with the added bonus of the unit being crippled if they fail their second "test" (the Grimoire) and relying on a second, unrelated 300-point model to provide any reliability whatsoever (which is lost if/when he dies).
Which is, again, why the army hasn't won a single GT despite all the whining. If it doesn't shut itself down, good players play around it.
It's the efficient, no-gimmicks Eldar/Tau armies that are winning absolutely everything. But it's harder to quantify why those armies are good, or set up a way to ban them, while it's real easy to go on the internet and yell "waaaah the other guy had a unit I couldn't kill" in the opposite case.
So yes, "be careful when you cherrypick rules" is the right sentiment, but I'll gladly say it shouldn't be done. Comping 40k is a terrible idea because no amount of it results in a balanced ruleset.
In this particular case, all that's been accomplished is hamstringing one of the very few lists that COULD have posed a threat to a guaranteed Eldar and/or Tau victory, even though those are the same lists that likely would have won anyway.
I agree. Limits on composition distract players from the actual difference play makes on the board. Riptides can be pinned, for example, and Wraithknights are horribly vulnerable to stuff like Snipers, poison, fleshbane, and other flat wound rolls. Without the pressure to move to Paper, the game stagnates with players trying to counter Rock (1) with Rock (2).
DeleteRock/paper/scissors is pretty horrible game design. Especially when there is a $500+ transnational cost to make your choice.
DeleteNon-interactive armies like the *stars are negative play experiences. In my opinion, counterable or not, they should not be in the game. They're force you to play an almost completely different game. It's an asymmetrical situation that I don't think the game has any way to cope with outside of above average player skill and luck.
A game should represent a closed space. For every option A you take there should be a counter B that I can respond with. Outside of a few holdovers from the last edition there are no counters for the *starts within the game system. You have to play your opponent instead of the game to beat them. The 40K equivalent of talking someone out of buying a property in Monopoly. Yeah, it's a way to win, just not the way you're supposed to win.
Though I would say that the *stars are really more of a scapegoat for the big TOs and hard core players. As in; "The game is in a pretty good state right now if not for 2++ re-rollables." While ignoring all the major structural problems with this edition. Allies, wound allocation, poor counter-psychic rules, and allies have created a prefect storm of game imbalance. Throw in a couple of 'what where they thinking' units and you've got a pretty crappy edition.
Heaping the blame on the 2++ re-rollable is just a way to pretend the game is still mostly OK and not completely busted.
Rock/paper/scissors is leaps and bounds ahead of where we were at the end of 5th Edition, which consisted of everyone chucking silver-spraypainted rocks at each other while paper and scissors stayed at home.
DeleteThe game has always been "busted," that's why tournament play primarily boils down to 3-5 viable list cores at any given time. Banning the top one or two doesn't fix it, it just makes people mad. It's objectively a bad choice for an event to make.
The problem is, the only thing anyone wants to ban are the gimmick armies, and that's solely because they're easy targets--but as always in 40k, it's efficiency that actually wins, because efficiency is reliable. There's no pregame roll to decide if your Riptide gets to use all his Commander's fun tricks, or to see if your Wraithknight is T8 or not.
Game companies throw out bans for overpowered and NPE stuff all the time. What's rubbing people wrong here is that it's a TO doing it because GW seems uninterested in the job of maintaining their own game.
DeleteEven 6th could be playable, but it requires GW to actually be monitoring the state of the game and releasing FAQs and Erratas. No game is perfect, but if your are going to throw added layers of complexity to a game, you need to be making sure all the pieces are interacting smoothly. If Privateer or Battlefront where running 40K, serpents, buff commanders, and these 2++ re-rolls would probably all be fixed by now.
@ Dodger
Deletethat's actually part of my point - I *don't* have the full understanding of how the unit gets the 2++, what the lynchpin (if there is one) is, or how to counter it (if you can)... that's why I tried asking these things, and got a partial answer above.
I don't know what tests are needed, what Ld you have, etc etc.
I do know for Eldar that to get a 2+ re-rollable, you're banking on a Ld8 test, plus a random power from the 'Seer. And that can still be outgunned by ap2 weapons, which is the big difference, I think, between it and the Screamerstar. Even with the Archon's re-roll, if you get it, it's gone once you fail. I know from using a Mantleseer just how low that chance is (and the actual math), but there's a huge difference between a 2++/re-roll, and a 2++/re-roll that goes away.
As for the assault comments below, which are pretty spot on, I'm hoping the Nids bring a change to that... they'll be the first real and full "in your face assault" army of 6th (basically counting Nids and Orks as the be all end all assault armies).
Of course, they now have a Plasma-bug. So there's that... sigh.
What happened to the test tournament setting these restrictions? Why the rush to judgment, and when in the last 19 hours was Escalation banned?
ReplyDeleteNot surprised to see the pushback. It is the first thing then unfortunately others will follow. It is unfair because it does nothing to punish Taudar which is the most abusive and unfun list to play against. Get rid of Ignore Cover and ICs joining Riptides... Seriously you won't.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on IC's joining riptides. Poor rules writing leaves too much ambiguity on the always single model part.
DeleteBut ignores cover is needed without seriously nerfing stealth and shrouded. It's too easy to stack cover to 2+ in this edition. I would be cool with ignores cover going away if cover bonuses no longer stacked.
The problem arises when the vast majority of the serious competitive options are ignoring cover with no downside.
DeleteThere are models that pay a premium for Stealth/Shrouded or built-in Cover Saves, and those models are rather heinously overpriced in a metagame where they never get to use their cover saves in the first place.
Saying the abundance of 2+ cover is the problem highlights how overwhelmingly the game was shifted toward shooting. Remember when, if something had a great cover save and you wanted to kill it quickly, you had to go punch it? Or at least throw a template on it?
Things like Riptides and Wave Serpents should not be solving these problems from 60"+ away with no downside. Just further trivializes the mere concept of assaulting.
It's borderline sad that the only even remotely viable Assault lists (which have to resort to making themselves functionally invincible to attain viability) are the exact things everyone is up in arms to remove from the game.
I mostly agree, but I think the prevalence of both cover boosting and ignores cover are too high. If you don't bring ignores cover you end up facing multiple 50 man guard squads that are effectively buffed to terminator survivability.
DeleteYou need stupid levels of shooting efficiency or a combination of Look Out Sir and cover makes your shooting pointless. And it's not like you could have just assaulted that mass either. Some tanking 2+/3++ character with high init or minshackle scarabs made that pretty much a bad option too. Many armies couldn't build an assault unit that could get through the character and the blob of guys simultaneously.
My perception of 6th could be coming from 80% of my games being against Aaron though. ;) I've felt the top tournament meta this edition has been much more frustrating to play against.
Like I said, the whole things a convoluted busted mess. I guess I would say I agree with you in spirit, taking out just the *stars doesn't really "fix" 40K. Mostly because I think it's sledgehammer time instead of scalpel time. We'll, actually, I think it's sit on the sidelines a wait for 7th edition/Hasbro buyout time.
There are ways to take out blobs without the use of Ignore Cover but not every army can do it... I'm thinking CSM using Dirge Caster to shut down OW.
DeleteOK so CSM can have their blob buster, but Eldar and Tau can't have theirs. Yeah, that makes things more fair. It's not a problem of what the armies have access to, its a problem with the degree of access.
DeleteSorry greg for spoiling the fun. :-( I do love playing you as you stretch my mind when we play.
DeleteBut yes I can beat almost any list. BUT I know what its like to be under powered. Nova 2012. I went back afyer the glorious 2011 with high hopes. To be smashed against the rocks by a new edition and a list that was by far inferior to most top level east coasters. I still managed 8th in both the open and invitational and probably won half my games because of skill alone. But there was 'nothing' I could do to beat the new daemons. I played an almost perfect game against Nick Nanavati and got destroyed. Lost to Hanz Kruger even tho I killed an entire unit of screamers and almost his bloodthirster turn 1. I was boiling with disapointment. So unfortunately I had to stop bringing a knife to a gun fight.
Around here I have started again playing to my opponent accept where the gloves are off. I realize something needs to happen. Hopefully we can be a part of the solution.
Just think how easy it is for Taudar to ignore cover with both markerlights and serpent shields... No random rolls on the psychic tables or risking a Perils of the Warp, no Denying the Witch. It's so easy for Taudar.
ReplyDeleteBut tau dar hasn't won a GT yet.
DeleteNova invitational excluding. (Not a GT but the toughest major tournament on earth)
So am I correct in saying that with this ruling if you have a 2 or 3+ save and I use misfortune on you that you now reroll successful saves but need a 4+. Making misfortune pretty powerful.
ReplyDeleteThat is not correct as they are rerolling the first save not the second.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand what you mean, but I don't care how you rule it either way lol. You should maybe clarify the ruling a bit. Your sentence just says "ALL rerolls of ALL saves"... it does not say first vs second, or failed vs successful. So my first thought was what I asked and I could easily see other think that. =P
ReplyDeleteCorrected
ReplyDeleteWhat time would the GT start in Saturday?
ReplyDeleteOutrun a schedule up tonite
ReplyDeleteIs Forgeworld 40k approved allowed?
ReplyDeleteTake this outlined space marine list:
ReplyDelete1 HQ
Elites:
1 infantry in drop pod
2 infantry
3 dreadnought
Troops:
1 tactical in drop pod
2 tactical in drop pod
Fast Attack:
storm talon
Hvy Support:
Storm Raven
Forgive my ignorance, but can I deploy in such a manor as to have all units effectively in reserve by placing elite 2, 3 and HQ in the storm raven? Going by the NOVA FAQ is my unit count for calculating reserves 6? meaning I can only hold 3 units in reserve, being the ones compulsorily inside the drop pods?
I'm confused and new to this level of tournament play, please help.
Thanks.
Another question, sorry. Can a flyer in hover mode elect to go off of the able edge?
ReplyDelete