The final mission packet is completed. See below
After editing, play testing, and just realizing some things just didn't work, the Indy Open Team has completed the following packet.
Mission Packet
Good Luck. Sign up as there are a few spots left and we want you there. You can email us directly at
theindyopen@gmail.com with questions.
Sincerely,
The Indy Open
Mission 7 is the same as mission 1.
ReplyDeletealso, This (below) makes little sense, and seems to go against the rule book.
"All Hills-Difficult Terrain *No cover unless obscured 25% from the hill-5+ cover, if behind a hillcrest and obscured-4+ cover per the BRB. Line of Sight Blocking"
Yes mission and 1 and 7 is the same...
DeleteAnd you are incorrect in your statement that this goes against the rule book. Page 90 under difficult terrain.
"Difficult terrain slows down models wishing to move through it, and can sometimes be dangerous to models passing through it. It includes areas of rubble, woods, ruins, brush and scrub, ROCKY OUTCROPS, boggy ground, low walls, razor wire, barricades, STEEP HILLS, streams and other shallow water, as well as terrain features that combine several of these types."
The hills are both considered steep and rocky.
Well, as I have not seen anything of what terrain the tournament will be using, I do not know how rocky or steep the middle hills are. page 90 is generally for undefined pieces of terrain, where 105 specifically states what hill crests and ridge lines are. Steep and rocky sections of hills are very subjective and I do not know how even each table's hills are, so I do not know how needed such a general ruling is.
Deleteand I'm still confused as to the 5+ cover, what defines if some rocky outcrop is part of the ridge line or not.
Cover is 6th edition a cover save per page 18 is
Delete"the target model's body (as defined on page 8) is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least 1 firer, wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save"
As the hill is not area terrain the only way you would receive a cover save is if your model or models are obscured 25% by the rocky, steep hills per the BRB.
Alot of tournaments run everything as area terrain and the distinction is to clarify the hill terrain pieces.
Mission 2, why are fliers not double kill points? how is that fair? I've seen no rule that says they cannot score.
ReplyDeleteMission 3, there seems to be an unspecified number of objectives. I place 2 in my opponents half, and he does the same, so 5 total objectives, 1 relic and 2 in his half that I can score?
Mission 4, again with the favor of fliers. Says to roll to see who places objective first, no objectives are placed and each terrain is the objective... the wording should be cleaned up.
Also having to be completely within terrain to claim it seems very limiting, in addition to heavy being scoring seems to really favor certain armies. It lists mysterious objectives, is this actually the terrain uses myst obj rules, or are they myst terrain?
Mission 5, says to roll off to determine who places objectives first, I assume this supersedes the rulebook on who places?
Mission 6 seems to be mission 3 again.
overall still not fond of the high amount of kill points, but it is offset by the having to win by 2. Though this may lead to more draws.
Flyers don't score in any tournament and will not in ours.
DeleteMission three states you place 1 objectives in your opponents table half, then another. That is 2 objectives that you place in your opponents table half more thatn 12" away from each objective. It also states that the relic is placed in the center.
Mission 4's wording will be corrected. The flier issue has been answered. Yes each major piece of terrain is an objective. Therefor each piece of terrain is a mysterious objective. And yes you must be entirely within the piece of terrain to hold and deny it.
Mission 5 will proceed as it is written.
Yes mission 6 and 3 are the same.
You have 2 primary objectives and 3 seconday objectives to determine a winner followed by a tie breaker if needed.
That's fine if you wish to continue based off of other tournaments, but it is not in the rules that a flyer cannot score. Nor does it say that this excludes them from counting for double KP. On that, I see no reason to then count other fast attack as double KP. This just seems to further the already growing problem with the balance of flyers.
DeleteI understand mission 3, but I feel it could be worded clearer as to the objectives.
And lastly mission 1/7: I'm not sure how I feel with the design of TQ vs 5 objectives, but with the negation of scoring units and the center. This may very well become a huge draw mission, or favor sit back and shoot armies. There is little incentive to attempt to move into the middle of the board. Unless you are sure you can claim that middle objective, you have to risk such a huge potential of TQ claiming it is not worth going for it.
ReplyDeleteAnd 5 of the 5 different missions have mysterious objectives.
I cannot comment on your strategy for a specific game.
DeleteIf you have further questions you can call me or post them here.
Just an FYI, I'm personally going through and doing a final-final rewrite of the packet for clarity and will get it out ASAP. Appreciate all the thoughts, Nick, and will clarify the Flyer/wording/scoring issues as I go.
ReplyDeleteFor reference to anyone playtesting, there will almost certainly be no major changes to the mechanics of the missions at this point; I'm just doing a pass for clarity and cohesiveness with the rulebook and our terminology.
Sorry for all the delays; Aaron had to essentially do the whole packet all by himself (on top of actually organizing the event) as I've been in the middle of a move and a new job.
As far as your thoughts on Mission 1/7: We expect to see some interesting games on that one, which is why we've featured it. Don't overlook the fact that the points cost of unit(s) controlling objectives are not counted toward their Table Quarter; this will make things more difficult for the 'sit back and shoot' armies you're most likely thinking of.
Flyers that are fast attack or heavy support that can eneter hover mode can score in some missions, in the rule book and every tournament that I'm aware of.
ReplyDeleteI loathe Relic mission and the emperors will or old school capture and control with a new name. I understand you all modified it but it doesnt fix the likelyhood that both of these missions end in a draw more then any other mission in the book. I honestly dont even play them when practicing for tournaments as I dont expect to see them for those reasons.
ReplyDeleteMission #6 managed to get both of them for the same mission. I guess if I give up first blood I will be playing to table my opponent. :(
In addition, did I read this correctly? Troops that are holding an objective cant control a table quarter?
DeleteLast amendment. Do fliers cant towards table quarters?
DeleteCorrect, a unit holding an objective does not count towards table quarters for mission 1 and 7.
DeleteAnd plan accordingly because the relic/emperor's will is both mission 3 and 6.
Didnt your tourney have it in 3 of 6 games? LOL.
Deletelol not my choice on that... relic was in 1 of them. I played against a static gunline ig player. He had no way of ever getting it.
DeleteTomb King:
ReplyDeleteI've been playtesting the modified Emperor's Will with the Relic, and I can assure you that it doesn't favor a draw. Since you get to place the objectives in your opponent's zone, you naturally set them as close as possible to you. Since the Relic greatly encourages movement towards the middle of the battlefield, it is only a short jog over to at least one objective. If anything, this mission ensemble encourages a clash of powers. Unless you army is highly maneuverable (aka demons or transport flyers), you are forced to push out. And that, within the grand scheme of all 7 missions, necessitates flexibility. At the Indy Open you will not be able to sit back all the time. Some missions favor deathstars, some campers, some MSU, some kill point denial lists, some fast movers, etc. In a nutshell, the army that is going to win is most likely the one that is extremely flexible. And that's good.
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DeleteI wish the best for IG, Dark eldar, eldar and Tau players. Flexible or not is gonna be an uphill battle on both of those missions for any of the finesse xenos armies.
DeleteBTW: do fliers count towards table quarters?
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DeleteA further note:
DeleteThe current packet includes an explanation of how the holding objective/not contributing towards Table Quarter mechanic works.
The short version is that you're allowed to choose to declare that a unit ISN'T holding an objective; we're not looking to penalize people for having scoring units, just to prevent any given unit from contributing to both simultaneously, which we believe makes for a better mission.
So if you're winning Crusade 5-0 and would rather have some of those units contributing points toward Table Quarters rather than holding unnecessary objectives, they won't be forced to run away from the objective or anything, you can just declare it at the end of the game.
Correction: Flyers do not count toward Table Quarters.
DeleteAnd a note on the design intent of the Relic/Emperor's Will mission: While the two missions independently may favor draws (which, in itself, is mostly irrelevant as we have no draws) they were paired together to offset strengths.Emperor's Will tends to favor either heavily durable/stationary armies (who tend to hold their deployment zone objective(s) against all comers) and heavily mobile armies (who can harass the enemy deployment zone objective(s) with ease) while Relic tends to favor brute-force center-hold armies.Very few armies are capable of the flexibility necessary to achieve both of those playstyles simultaneously, but that's what we'd like to encourage.
Correction to the above comment. Flying monstrous creatures count towards quarters but flyers do not.
ReplyDeleteBut for realz what about flyers withthe hover type
ReplyDeleteThis could cause issues though,
ReplyDelete"The short version is that you're allowed to choose to declare that a unit ISN'T holding an objective; we're not looking to penalize people for having scoring units, just to prevent any given unit from contributing to both simultaneously, which we believe makes for a better mission."
If I am winning objectives 3-2 and my opponent decides not to claim his two to get the table quarters then what is stopping me from not claiming 2 of mine to maximize table quarter control. This is just a situation I could see arising where someone tries to shift gears to get one of the two primary objectives after the game where his opponent would of had both originally. Might establish a precedence for declaring this if you all are going to allow people to declare what they are doing post game.
My opponent could state he was for table quarters but then switch to objectives after I did the same. Its just too much room for TFG to really ruin someones day.
The player holding fewer Crusade objectives will be making the decision first. Presumably they'll decide to forfeit all their objectives, but this will obviously allow their opponent to do the same for all but one of theirs, which may not actually work out in their favor. In the event of a draw on Crusade, obviously neither player will be forfeiting objectives.
DeleteAt any rate, I'd be shocked if a situation that makes it relevant even occurs over the course of the entire day. You're basically talking about a single scoring unit's point value being enough to sway the outcome of a Table Quarter--in which they are currently holding an uncontested objective--while the overall Table Quarters score is otherwise tied in the other three Quarters, and with the difference of that scoring unit's Quarter changing the overall into a win on Table Quarters for the player that lost Crusade.
All other outcomes are meaningless, as changing the Table Quarters outcome to a tie (or a win for the player that won Crusade)--knowing that one player already won Crusade--is irrelevant given the nature of a straight W/L system.
It's worth noting the further unlikelihood of the scoring situation that would have to occur to make even THAT unlikely scenario possible in the first place--a tie on the other three Quarters essentially means there is an abandoned quarter with noone holding it in order for the 1-1 tie to occur and allowing the fourth Quarter to be relevant. Either that, or the "scoring unit's points deciding the Quarter whilst simultaneously holding an objective" scenario would have to occur in TWO Quarters simultaneously.
Basically, the chances of all that occuring are drastically lower than the chances of a player being negatively impacted due to his scoring unit being disallowed from contributing to Quarters because they were too close to an objective. Losing because you held an objective is a far more ludicrous and negative outcome, and it's one we're avoiding with this system. There's virtually no limit to the amount of shenanigans that could be pulled (particularly by the player with the final turn) if allowing your opponent to score an objective can work out in your favor; not to mention the inherent tactical downside of the player with first turn having to commit to objectives, and then the player with second turn being able to just walk away from them if he knows he's losing.
While the final-final packet should go up sometime tomorrow or Saturday, I'll go ahead and post the current implementation of the objective/table quarter mechanic (note that Unit Points is our new terminology for 5th's Victory Points for clarity) since it's drawing questions:
Delete"While units in control of a Crusade objective do not contribute Unit Points toward their Table Quarter, there is no requirement to physically move a scoring unit away from an objective for them to do so; the intention is simply that they cannot do both. As such, players may choose to forfeit Crusade objectives in order to instead count the controlling unit's points toward Table Quarters at the end of the game. The player in control of fewer Crusade objectives will make this declaration first. In the event of a tie on Crusade, neither player is allowed to forfeit objectives."
This version of the rule is the simplest and least tactically disruptive way to handle a rather complex intertwining of the missions, and is almost certainly the one we'll be using at the tournament.
Alright sounds good as long as there is some precedence for it. Last thing here. Do models embarked on transports still count towards table quarters or do they have to disembark to count for quarters?
DeleteYes, embarked units count. It's essentially everything that meets the positioning requirements, isn't a Flyer, and isn't currently holding a Crusade objective.
DeleteHover type flyers are still flyers a b d cannot score in any mission.
ReplyDelete