This past Saturday as I was driving up to Games 2 Die 4 to get in a practice game I noticed a ton of cars in the parking lot...
At first I was like Yes!!! But then I realized there was a magic pre-release and was like...
NOOOOOOaaaahhhhOO!!!!!!!!!!!
But then I walked in and observed every table except the two large gaming tables unused. There was hope for a game.
Then the players started coming in. Wouldn't you know it Scottydont walked in with his pretty colored salamanders. Then Carl walked in with his blood angels, another player with Tau, etc. It was great to see my good friend Scott coming in for some 40k. The buzz was humming as players were trying out the new space marine hotness.
The Saturday before there were 5 players in the store as well. It is nice to see the buzz start up again and I intend to help push the excitement along. I am going to run a tournament hopefully the week I get back from Feast of Blades. Run a fun tournament where all the prizes are random and it doesn't matter if you win or lose.
Back in the saddle again it appears. I am seeing some really good competitive builds and just "real fun" looking units out of the new space marine codex. As I have spoken to many in the shop that I feel GW is doing a good job in making each 6th edition codex very playable with so many options that anyone could have a good time. And let's face it.... that is why we play the game to have a good time with great friends. :)
I look forward to seeing you guys on the tables...
What do you see that you like out of the space marine codex?
Anything you want to try?
Locally we never really had a "40K is Dead" moment at the Gopher at least... Last league was pretty dead, but more to do with real life issues in a College town than anything else I think. A LOT of the older Marine players are really excited about the new book. I play Crimson Fists, so my lads are doing quite well. A local Ultra Marine player actually fully painted up AS Smurfs... A few guys talking Iron Hands for the Tech Marines and DNs, etc... Unfortunately our Bike Marine guy moved with his real life job so no White Scars really, but betting Roswell NM has one more...
ReplyDeleteI think the books as they are released are good and pretty well balanced... Really the biggest "problems" I see are things like the Necrons who were ported poorly to 6th from 5th. Poorly from a game balance perspective. Now, we are not a hugely competitive group, so that may be coloring my opinions about the game overall...
I figured the new codex would pull a lot of players out of the woodwork. Unfortunately I don't think the codex will be top tier. It still has some major issues against the power builds. Hopefully they will stick around.
ReplyDeleteI agree it's a nice codex over all, sadly it doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell against all the Tau, Eldar, and Heldrake spam running around all over the boards. shame really, as I had hoped that this new Marine codex could shake up the Tau/Eldar meta we have been suffering through as of late.
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DeleteI actually see the SM codex being very strong. With allies to fill in gaps it will get even better.
DeleteHow so? They are 90% the same army they where before the update. The top builds still run a plethora of cover ignoring low AP weapons. Bikes are better, but that doesn't help the tactical marine armies that are actually sitting on everyone's shelves. It's a mid tier codex. Not unplayable, but they got nothing to upset Taudar as the obvious tournament army choice. If you have an all-comers marine list that can stand up to triple-drake, Taudar, Cron-air, and FMC spam, I'd like to see it.
DeleteBeing able to take allies isn't a reason for a codex to be good. Tau and Eldar are top tier armies because they don't need allies to cover a fundamental weakness. That way they can use their allies to augment an existing strength.
Working on it. But I don't see a single codex not using allies staying on top.
DeleteOnly because allies ramps the power level up. What I'm saying is that Eldar or Tau individually have the parts necessary to build a good list. So their allies can build on their strengths instead of covering a weakness.
DeleteA codex with a weakness takes allies and becomes adequate. A codex without a weakness takes allies and becomes above average.
How to counter triple heldrake? Simple: Triple Stormraven with IWND.
DeleteSo every tournament marine army needs three Storm Ravens? Should be good so long as you don't run into Vendettas, or Wave Serpents, or Tesla. People don't ever play those right?
DeleteThe counter to triple Heldrakes is fielding things like Ghost Arks, Doomsday Arks, Monoliths, Land Raiders, and other rarely seen units. Heck, a phalanx of Necron Warriors accompanying a Lord with a Resurrection Orb is going to murder any Heldrake that ends its move within 18".
DeleteNecrons aren't scoring in Marine armies, so it's a waste to take them. And Land Raiders are only partially effective and overly expensive.
DeleteThe trick is to create a marine list that can fight triple drake, and is not gimped versus everything else in the process. And Marines are still in the same place as with the old codex in that regard.
If your answer to something with 4 hull points, 12 armor all around, IWND, and Machine Spirit is Vens, Serpents, and Tesla, then what's the big deal about Heldrakes? They're minus one hull point. I'm not saying you need them in a list, I'm just saying they're an answer to triple heldrake for marines without allies.
DeleteI am still waiting to see the triple hell Drake list now. The fact that tau and eldar have basically eliminated the flying dragon and thatthe storm Talon can easily deal with them is valid enough.
DeleteYou can't rely on someone else's army to eliminate your krypton ute from the tounnament.
DeleteYes you can. If chaos players don't bring drakes cause tau/eldar/STORM TALONS! Then you dont have to worry about them that much in heavy competitive play. Trust me..a Storm talons are one of the answers to helldrakes for sm. Centurions are the another with prescience.
DeleteI'm with Caulyn on not seeing any top-end options coming out of this Marine book, but at the same time I think you're vastly underestimating the value of allies in the current top builds.
DeleteSaying Tau have no fundamental weaknesses that they need allies to cover for is rather blatantly overlooking how godawful their Troops are. Those lists where people were trying to Outflank 60-100 Kroot to make up for it didn't last very long; take as many of them as you want, they're still slow, about as resilient as tissue paper, and Ld7.
The unit or two of guys inside the Wave Serpents and/or the 48" Jetbike grabs are filling a pretty huge gap in that army right now. Without them, Tau would be right back where they were early in 5th--staring across the board at a huge smoking crater that used to be the enemy army, but losing anyway.
That's hoping you get lucky Spag. You can still pair up against someone who didn't get the memo that Taudar>Heldrakes in the first round of a tournament.
DeleteAnd Storm Talons are fragile as all hell. 2 hull points makes them super susceptible to interceptor. And Centurions are too short ranged and too slow to be an effective counter to any fliers. At best you can pull off some area denial, but that's it.
I disagree with the sentiment that Space Marines are underpowered and don't live up to the Eldar/Tau top tier armies without allies. It's early days yet and it'll take time for things to develop into more solid cores but Eldar and Tau also had this effect, same with all codicies. The huge weakness of the space marine codex is that they didn't get interceptor on the dedicated anti-air units. Is this going to be a recurring theme from now on is the question we all should be asking, because maybe GW realised that massed interceptor means less fliers which means less flier sales which means unhappy stake holders. It's a valid point to bring up and regardless space marines have the ability to ally in interceptor based anti-air.
DeleteHowever, lets look at the marines in isolation. There are a lot of interesting builds and ideas floating around, at least down here in Aussie land. Combinations such as Imperial Fists Primary with White Scars Secondary (or vice versa) to bring in a fast mobile drop army with tank hunting supporting fire and quite accurate bolter fire (it's either twin-linked or re-rolling 1's to hit) is a more popular idea being refined but recurring themes of which chapter tactics to employ is where it's at. CaulynDarr said above that 90% of the space marine codex is the same as it was before. Actually, that's not true. The Unit choices may be the same, but the points and options on almost all of the pre-existing ones are cheaper, some considerably so, and some options have become quite interesting in terms of stealth cheese so to speak within the right builds. Tactical Marines are cheaper, scouts are really cheap, sternguard changed up in terms of combi-weapons being more expensive but legion of the damned suddenly not only gained power armour (3+/3++ instead of just 3++) but have ignore cover on their weapons too, and a nice plasma death squad of those babies is appealing to many. Centurions are expensive. A lot of attention is focused on them but in essence they are really expensive and are getting focused on early, this is all well and good and can play to army compositions nicely as a somewhat expensive sacrificial draw the enemy firepower unit, but they are expensive for all that. But assuming that, and let me quote CaulynDarr (not picking on you mate, just a few things easier expressed by you) " And Centurions are too short ranged and too slow to be an effective counter to any fliers. At best you can pull off some area denial, but that's it", assuming that Centurions are onlya rmed with the grav cannon option for anti-tank/air and so have a 24" base range when they can pack twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers to extend that to 48" range is just showing us all you aren't looking at all the options available to the codex, and are indeed generalising too much. This happens with all codicies in the first several montsh after release so stating that space marine saren't top tier and then making assumptions without fully digesting what is available army wise out there and unit wise is erroneous. There's a lot there, it's different, characters are cheaper as well, people were bemoaning how a captain at 90pts just isn't worth it over the chapter master and space puppies players the world over are wanting to smash these idiots heads into the ground as the captain has wolf lord stats and a 4++ at 35pts cheaper then a wolf lord can. There's some small changes that make things very interesting and being able to have 2 detachments from the same codex brings in interesting synergies but again, early days, things will get refined. It's too early to state that Space Marines aren't a top tier codex in isolation of non-codex allies. They have the tools and they are cheaper then ever before, it's early days, let people refine and build the kinks out before making assumptions.
You do realize that Legion of the Damned gaining an armor save is actually a negative for them now, right?
DeleteThe only way they would have benefitted from having an armor save was Null Zone, which no longer exists. Simultaneously, Grav Weapons now exist, which hurts them for having an armor save.
In other news, hey guys Null Zone no longer exists. woo. It sure was fun giving the Marine players a get-out-of-competition-free card any time Daemons started winning tournaments in 5th.
At the end of the day all those point decreases might net you a hundred extra points. Your 1850 pt marine army gets an extra 5 tactical marines with a special. The army is still T4 3+ armor guys in basically the same composition as before. And with all the high strength, low AP, cover denying weaponry you're guys don't end up being that much more survivable than guardsmen.
DeleteI've been saying that it's not unplayable. A lot of the new options are good, and I see some potential neat tricks that I'm interested in trying out. Unfortunately at the end of the day they got nothing as crazy efficient as a Riptide or a Wave Serpent.
You say we should take time for the good build to emerge. How long did it take people to figure out the Tau and Eldar codexes? The good units where spotted a whole 12 seconds after the codex came out. There was some refining that happened after that, but not much. Spag had his list for Nova 90% set within 3-4 weeks of the Eldar codex coming out. We're in that same time frame for the Marine codex right now,
T4 3+ really isn't THAT bad of a place to be right now; I think you're missing on why Marine armies aren't doing well in 6th.
DeleteOf all the bleeding-edge competitive choices right now, the only thing AP3 or better is really the Riptide and Eldar quasi-Rend. Everything else is all Tau Missiles, Serpent Shields, Scatter Lasers, etc etc.
The reason Marines aren't doing well is that the role of Troops basically flipped from 5th to 6th. In 5th, Mech Vets and Grey Hunters (and then later on, whatever flavor of GK Troop) were the most effective Troops because they were the best at actually contributing to your army--you could take a pile of them and not cripple your army in doing so, unlike most other Codexes, where the Troops were a hinderance. Point-efficient offensive Troops were an enormous boon, partially because if all went according to plan, they'd never get out of their metal boxes.
In 6th, virtually any points spent toward offensive ends on your Troops is a waste. The efficiency of Troops in 6th can basically be boiled down to a measure of survivability plus mobility per point; and in most cases, "more wounds" is the most effective means of surviving right now, which is why we're flooded with the cheapest Troop choices possible--with the exception of the absurdly mobile. The only contribution anyone wants from their Troops right now is hiding and staying the hell alive.
Think about 5th--armies were DEFINED by their Troop choices. Draigowing, Loganwing, xxx-Wing, Mech Vets, Razorspam (meaning Grey Hunters), etc. Has a single Troops-centric army done well in 6th at any time? People got so excited for Ravenwing and it went absolutely nowhere; I expect the same out of White Scars. You just can't afford to have your Troops on the front line right now.
And Marines don't really have that as an option. A Tactical Squad is too expensive to have just sitting in a corner all game trying to hide; they're equipped, from the ground up, to go fight and be a meaningful part of your offensive gameplan. Scouts aren't a noticeable enough drop to fare any better.
6th Edition is the age of the weak, cheap Troops. Unless something dramatically changes, I wouldn't be too worried about any of the Marine books for the foreseeable future.
Orks and Tyranids, on the other hand, could be absolute terrors once they're updated.
Expanding on that Dodger3, dropping down 60 naked scouts at a mere 660pts isn't that bad a place to be either. People keep bringing up helldrakes and how they roast expensive marines dead, but hey, you can get cheaper scouts who are still T4 for a lot less now, sure you can cloak them up but just staying out of sight/reserving and breaking into smaller units is an option. Heck 60 scouts with the bare naked loadout of BP+Bolter as Imperial Fists gives them an effective BS of 3.7 with the bolter, which isn't that bad all things considered. 660pts also leaves you plenty of options for not only a meaty marine army but allies as well. My point is, marines are cheaper as a whole, and no matter what people say, wiping massed combat squadded marines which saturate the field is not a quick and easy thing to do.
DeleteThe statement of CaulynDarr that you have maybe an extra 100pts on an 1850pt army with the price reductions is nothing to get excited about just screams he doesn't know how to list refine in the building and design phase. 100pts goes so fucking far it isn't funny especially at the 1850pts level of play. But whatever.
This whole idea that the space marine codex has to live up to the obvious power-builds of the eldar and tau is a load of crock in terms of the combo's being immediate. The Space Marine codex is a thinking mans codex, it's not a have a gander and point and click like an unskilled redshirtted nublet codex, it actually requires you to think about what to bring and how to bring it. Give it time, it's sort of like the Dark Eldar codex, that took a very long time for people to get good army lists out of because it was different and not easily graspable.
I was trying to say the same thing, just coming from a different direction. I agree 6th edition troops are all about speed and hiding. Mostly hiding. And that's not what tactical marines are good for.
Delete100 points is 1 unit or a couple of upgrades across a few units. It's nice, but its not going to win you anything but really close games. And don't forget that every army has been getting these cost decreases too. It keeps you up with the power curve; doesn't put you in front of it.
Delete60 bare scouts? seriously? You might as well just run Guard,
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DeleteAnd claiming that marines are now the finesse army means the game is in a really weird state right now.
DeleteThey are kinda that way now. You kni w what kills riptides? Dreadknights.. but You canrbplay marines just run out worhout cover anymore
Delete@Auretious Taak
DeleteIf you think taking 660 points worth of Scouts is a remotely reasonable idea (particularly to the degree of mathhammering their contributions with their Bolters) then you're not expanding on what I said, because you completely missed the point of it.
You're mostly coming across as desperately hoping the Marine Codex is competitive, instead of actually providing any reason to think it will be. The thought train of "well nobody can say until we've had more time, this is just a more complicated Codex!!" reeks of borderline-fanboyism; the phrase "redshirted nublet codex" didn't do you any favors in that regard either.
The truth is Marine Troops are incredibly poorly suited for this edition, and throwing points at it (particularly 660 of them) won't solve the problem for them any more than it did for the Tau players who tried to throw Kroot at it.
Spag's is totally shit faced right now! Never seen him make only half sense with sentences and spell stuff so wrongly. :p
DeleteLol. Dont know what happened there. Marines can work. We just have to go back to transports.
DeleteI really do not know the status of the 40K group at my nearest store but given that they have not had a website front page level event since Hard boys last year it cannot be great. They might just be trying to rid the magic bubble hard before falters. I could see the new codex get all those unused marine players out for a little while but at like 110 dollars for the 6th edition rules plus the codex bring back people who dropped before 6th released is not a super easy sale.
ReplyDelete40k is only dead when GW goes under.
ReplyDeleteor when Tactical Space Marine boxes are retailing at $200 per box.
Which ever comes first.
Great to hear 40k is on the rise. You seem to have a positive look on the hobby... Good for you.
ReplyDelete: )
I am normally.
DeleteNot as positive as my new Eldar Objective Markers make ME feel...with these, the GT will surely be MINE! http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/BossGrabnutz/objectives_zpsf69665cf.gif
DeleteI highly doubt I'll ever reach the level of playing again (albeit I only managed to play a couple of games before I had to stop; I was imperial guard and my miniatures were painted poorly and incompletely; the models lacking any glued-on miscellaneous bits).
ReplyDeleteHowever, my fascination with the Warhammer 40k universe has been ever consistent, and I've developed quite a large Black Library of my own.
Maybe one day I will play again. But I find it more likely to say that maybe one day I will try again to buy a couple models to try my hand at painting again.
I normally am. ;-)
ReplyDeleteHeh, yeah, I've seen a couple more come back, but a lot of the increase the last couple of weeks are what the store management puts down to "summer's over, back to school, vacation romances done, back to the game shop to see what's up". We'll see if it lasts down here, I know that sales are off (individuals are spending more $$, but in general less $$ are being spent) and the store is looking for something else. I do know they plan on splashing on Robotech when it comes out, although I think DZC would be a better competitor. Unfortunately, I live in a gaming "dead zone", equidistant from larger cities, just too far for people to show up to demo enough to build an interest in a game.
ReplyDelete40k is still pretty dead here. WM and Flames both pull in lots more people into the LGS. 6th edition just isn't tight enough to get people to play more than once in a blue. The most recent 40k tournament was canceled, no one showed.
ReplyDeleteToo many assumptions about SM's. Weak sauce troops will lose you many objective based games no mater how much MC spam you have. Not every game purge. Just saying.... Scottydont...miss yah bro. I try and make my way to G2D4 every Mon, i have that day off.
ReplyDeleteI just see them leaving now
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PLNpAoxEns&feature=em-uploademail-ot