Feast of Blades is coming up next month and I am torn again on what to bring to the party. The new Space Marine Codex just came out and there are a ton of options. My Eldar/Tau list did very well at Nova as seen here.
But I am torn as ........
With Nova just getting over with I can see a ton of people jumping on the 4 or even 5 riptide list bandwagon which I call Riptide Rush! I had a good outing against one list but I see a possibility of more than just a few players wanting to bring this list. I will say this list is strong, can take a ton of shooting and keep on coming.
On the other hand the new space marine centurions will absolutely destroy this build fairly easily. Even with Ovesa.
The missions will be standard book missions so that helps with list building but there are so many variables and I don't want to spend a ton of money to get ready with it being only 1 month away.
My army options include:
Eldar 
Tau
Space Wolves (my favorite)/Space Marines
Necrons with Orks
Necrons with Chaos Space Marines 
Nids
I want to do well in probably my last GT of 2013. List creation is 25% of the battle in my opinion. It's not about going out and buying a ton of models. It's about using what you have available to me. Could I run 3 riptides? I would have to borrow 2 or borrow 1 and buy one. Although it is tempting to do this I really don't want to. I don't mind buying a unit or 2 but just really want a balanced list.
To add to the drama if I place 1st or 2nd at this event above a particular great player from Chicago I will make the American ETC team which has been my dream since starting competitive play in 40k. I won't consider this a lost experience if I go but would like to reach my highest goal.
A few notes on the new space marine dex. My few games of practice and my one game against sisters at Nova definitely makes it more difficult for eldar kill 3+ armor as easily as it does the xenos races. I think the SM codex is greatly balanced and can bring a lot of tools to the table.
So readers, friends, enemies, and the rest. What are your thoughts on an army I should bring to The Feast of Blades?
Roll with the Nids one more time before the new codex drops.
ReplyDeletenecrons and orks....duh. lol
ReplyDeleteNids are interesting. With the Meta changes they are tempting. Grav cannons screw tervigons tho.
ReplyDeleteI loved the necron/orc combo I took to tippcon.
All jokes aside, look at the current meta and figure it out from there. As much as I would like to say, go for necrons/orks, that might not be the best. Also look at the fact that many players are gonna be looking at your lists and such. Make something to make them do a double take. Something you wouldn't usually do. You are already a good enough player, use that and make a list that other's aren't used to seeing you do anymore. I would do Tau, because well that's my current list. But I use a crap ton of fire warriors with the two ethereal bubble. Works well for me.
ReplyDeleteGood luck on your ETC run! Though i had thought Adam Tricola was first runner up for the wildcard? of course i could have misinterpreted the adepticon scoring with so many people having similar battle scores.
ReplyDeleteAdam is a great player. I got a rematch and revenge at Nova. I got 4th at Adepticon and 8th at Nova. He is in the hunt for the wildcard yes. Thanks
Delete4 Land Raiders
ReplyDeleteAre you serious?
DeleteSort of. No one's going to run anything that can reliably deal wit it.
DeleteGo Iron Hands for It Will Not Die and a couple of techmarines on bikes to fix up extra hull points.
It'd be mighty ironic to bring LR spam and then lose to a barely competitive dark eldar list, costing the ETC slot though.
DeletePeople have tried LR spam as a meta-counter all throughout 6th; it's just not reliable enough. Every new Codex release since Dark Angels has made people go "hey, nobody's taking Melta! Grab all the Land Raiders!"
DeleteEven if you work from a perfect world where nobody ever kills any of your Land Raiders, the problem is that a single hard unit arriving via LR can't singlehandedly win the game the way they could in 5th, nor can units hide in it to score.
Then there's the much, much bigger issue which is that there are still plenty of armies that can kill Land Raiders without actually trying; as long as Necrons and Daemons are semi-popular armies, the concept of spamming Land Raiders to counter Tau/Eldar just won't work, because either an FMC army will eat them without caring in the least or 100 points of Necrons will glance them to death.
Iron Hands gives people a new excuse to try it, so it's good to think about playing against it, I just wouldn't put any faith in actually playing it yourself.
Actuslly I excect a ton of centurions who will crush landraiders.
ReplyDeleteStick to Eldar. For a proven tactical player, they are probably one of the best armies you can field. Battle focus combined with fleet takes a lot of the control from your foe. The Wraithknight is amazing...have you looked at an Autarch (for reserve rolls with Fire Prisms) or a Farseer (Guide/Fate) with Prisms? Also, the Flyer with an Exarch and Marksman...what's not to love about a vector dancer than can snipe out Characters on 5-6, with high str AP 2 shots with additional Star Cannons?
ReplyDeleteAlso, Mantle of the Laughing God with Banshee mask and Laser Lance....just awesome
DeleteI agree here. Eldar have some wicked potential beyond just wave serpents. Someone who is a good player can go really far with them.
DeleteAye, or if he wants to spend the points, drop the lance and add the shard...go kill those Great Unclean Ones in a challenge and laugh while they go dead last
DeleteI think you're dramatically overestimating the impact of Centurions.
ReplyDeleteSomehow, people keep looking at the statline of Grav Cannons and expecting them to serve as a counter to Riptides. How exactly would that ever work out under actual game conditions?
Centurions are SNP Infantry with a 24" gun and their desired target has a Jet Pack, no desire to advance to midfield, and a 72" gun that is just as good at killing them as they are at killing it.
Anyone who actually loses a Riptide to a unit of Grav Cannon Centurions should have their Riptide confiscated. Bike-mounted Grav Guns is the only serious means to threaten a Riptide with Grav weapons, and even that's a long shot.
Grav weaponry in general is surfing on an enormous wave of hype that I don't believe they'll live up to in the slightest. You have to compare them to Plasma weapons, and their only upside compared to Plasma is killing Monstrous Creatures, while simultaneously being awful at killing Daemons.
When your dedicated anti-Monstrous Creature weapons are terrible at killing Daemons, you might run into some conceptual problems down the line.
That, and against the "generic" MC profile, T6 3+, they basically function the exact same as plasma guns. plasma has better range, grav has a chance for more shots.
DeleteCenturion with grav will kill a landraider in a single volley. just something to keep in mind.
Agreed. Mainly due to range, I think Plasma is going to, on the whole, outclass Grav weaponry.
DeleteGravturions may be popular, but won't be that nasty. They're still only 24", which is a very moderate threat bubble to deal with (okay, 30" with movement). And they don't seem to be a horrid nut to crack, either.
And maybe I'm missing some rules, but how are Centurions popping land raiders galore? I thought Grav only glanced vehicles on a 6 (or auto-immob'd them, or something). Unless I just remembered that Immobilizing an already-immob'd vehicle just does an extra HP, in which case they only need 2 6's to drop any vehicle in the game.
Still. Just assault them. Problem solved.
Killing that land raider is still banking on fair number sixes.
ReplyDeleteYou only need 3 6's. Three twin linked centurions average 3 6's.
DeleteThought LR had 4 hull points?
DeleteThere's some contention on whether the Immobilized Result strips a hull point as well. Also some contention of whether you can take saves against grav hits on vehicles as they don't cause actual glances or pens.
DeleteGW rules writing at it's finest.
Unfortunately, the source of the contention (as usual) is people with blogs who don't know any better writing up horrible explanations--or just what they "feel" should happen--and spreading misconceptions to other people who haven't actually looked into it.
DeleteThere's already relevant FAQs for every one of those issues (stemming from Invul saves on vehicles, Dangerous Terrain on vehicles, and essentially the old Thunder Hammer 'shaken' issue) but they don't come out to what people expected, so it's mobs and pitchforks time.
Unless GW FAQs it otherwise, I can tell you right now that 90% of tournaments won't allow cover saves and will strip the extra Hull Point for multiple-Immobilized. There's really no wiggle room for other interpretations beyond "I don't like it" or "I have no idea how the rules work but here's what I think." Natfka's article on the issue literally hurt my brain.
Ah, I missed the imobilized result from the graviton effect.
DeleteIf played as intended, then ouch, that is hectic!
Personally I think Sm with Tau allies will be a nice counter. T-Fires can stay out of LOS and scour scoring units off the table. Tank Hunting/Ignores Cover Cents will pop Wave serpents and Buff Commander can tank wounds. Bikes running around with Grav and Scouts with LSS give nice tactical options. Your mobile, you hit hard from range and in close. Give it a shot.
ReplyDeleteI personally like this idea the best.
DeleteWith FoB only a month away, I would go with your gut. This isn't the time to start experimenting and trying things out. Go with the list that you are familiar with and that can kil the Riptides and Wraithknights you will inevitably see. Probably not a bad idea to ensure you have a good numer of AP 2 weapons around for the Centurions people will run as well.
ReplyDeleteI would hate for you to lose out on the ETC team because you were trying out a new list and experimenting with units you aren't very familiar with.
My vote would be for Eldar/Tau only because i think it gives you the best chance to win and make the ETC team. Good luck man!
Centurions seem inferior to bike squads with 2x grav guns. Their range and RoF is a little lower but they have the mobility to get where they need to be. White Scars will be the best army. Grav gun spam is amazing. The bikes are such a mobile and durable platform they become hellish to deal with for most armies.
ReplyDeleteI'd approach it assuming a lot of players won't have received this memo. If you can field white scars I say go with them. Else adapt your build to shore up weaknesses to grav guns. I'd anticipate a lot of SM players jumping back into the game so a expect a big range of armies, not just "optimal" builds. Gearing up for killing MEQs isn't hard for eldar, shruiken weaponry does it great. I'd consider taking some guardians since they're hard to kill with grav guns and their catapults are great at shredding through 3+ saves.
Overall, the lesson to stick with what you know is sound. The list is important but so long as you anticipate the new builds and make sure you have some counters you'll be fine. Finally do playtest the mantle autarch. I'd add a fusion gun to his build for extra lethality vs tanks, but he's fairly cheap for the amount of mayhem he can create. A re-rollable 2+ save is fantastic.
White Scars are almost certainly going to be the best build that Marine Codex can put out, but unfortunately (despite what the internet would lead you to believe) Tau and Eldar aren't the only two armies in existence.
DeleteAsk anyone who tried Ravenwing seven months ago--Bike armies are all fun and games right up until you play CSM or Daemons, or to a lesser degree, even Necrons. White Scars are just Ravenwing with a couple new tricks, but none of those new tricks will help in the slightest against FMCs or Heldrakes.
Then there's the whole $450 price tag on getting the 30 bikes minimum you'll need.
DeleteOf course you can apply the same FMC/Heldrake argument to Marines in general. How does an army built around a 3+ save fight AP3 torrent flamers that can reach anywhere on the board and you can't shoot at until after they've vaporized 20 models?
Sure Grav Weapons have a hard time killing Guardians, but those Twin-Linked Bolters don't. I agree that people will think Grav-Guns are the new shit, and they will be everywhere in droves. If you run across Space Marines, i imagine majority will be on bikes, something Eldar don't really need to fear so much.
DeleteThat's the thing--6th Ed just isn't favorable to MEQ. That 3+ doesn't get you as far as it used to.
DeleteI'm not seeing anything in the new Marine book that will overcome that.
It's actually been really fun watching the circular argument going on regarding Heldrakes--people are yelling "well, Marines will have a chance because not as many people are playing Heldrakes!" And what exactly do they think will happen if Marines become popular?
I love 3+ saves. I'm used to IG and DE though so I'm not used to having durable troops.
DeleteIt's easy to over-state the threat from the helldrake. Losing 20 bikes per turn? Only if you're careless. Bikes can space out BIG thanks to their enormous bases. Space out right and the helldrake can only hit 3x bikes per turn, wounding on 3+ that's an avg of 2x bikes lost per turn. Hardly crippling and there's a fair number of options in the codex that can take on drakes if you're worried.
Demons are a big problem but I think bikes have more of a chance than most armies because they're fast. Hopefully you're bringing thunderfires so you can attempt to snipe out heralds. It's tough, no doubts, but I can't think of an army that doesn't have issues with Deamons, they're a great army.
I think that Korona sums up my position rather well. In my experience, games are won with some mix of mobility and durability. Bike armies offer a healthy amount of both. Can they be beaten? Yes, but in the right hands, they can give your opponent fits.
DeleteIt's 2 bikes a turn times 3 baleflamers. Loosing 6 bikes a turn--minimum--is not sustainable. And that's not considering your opponent using tank shocks or other tactics to bunch up your bikes before dropping the flamer on them. Your also going to have to bunch up those bikes on your own to make use of the rapid fire range of your bolters and grav.
DeleteThank you all for your suggestions. I am finalizing my list this week..... I will post it the day before I leave. ;)
ReplyDeleteWhile I really really want you to go with CSM and win the whole thing, sadly I don't think that the spiky marines have what it takes to do so.
ReplyDeleteI think that the best advice is to go with what you know and are used to playing with. Yes a lot of people will be taking mirror list of your nava list and the Riptide Rush (swee what I did there?), how many will actually have anything like the time you have put into playing the army? You might consider adjusting your list for the new marines but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water either.