A while ago we were asked about making a competitive all GK list. I outlined that it can't really be done. There are too many holes in a pure GK force, that are MEANT to be filled by Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and Inducted IG.
I do think that with a little of both, you can end up with a decent list with some long range punch, some Melta goodness, anti-infantry shooting, some close combat ability, and maneuverability.
I'll go to 1500pts, and then take it up to 2000pts.
It's hard to know where to start with a big force, and to think about what direction you'd like to go in. If you look at the article I wrote about GK's a while back, "Don't handicap yourself". I talked about some of the weaknesses GK's have. I think when designing, perhaps starting from a strong point might be better.
I like the GK Land Raider Crusader. With the decent PotMS, and Hurricane bolters that can always fire, it's nice. 12" movement, fire hurricanes, then still having the option to fire either the MultiMelta, or the old school Assault cannon.
I also like the GK termies. S6 Power Weapons following a hail of bolter fire? nice... psycannons are a nice addition as well. I've found playing them that a lot of people give this squad a LOT of leeway. Noone wants to be charged by them, and their shooting seems to remind people that they're still out there.
I do like vanilla GK's, and mini purgation squads (GK's with 2 Psycannons) too.
I think that for designing a force, it's important to start with a good base.
GK Land Raider Crusader 255pts
Brother Captain (psycannon, Psychic Hood) 320pts
4GK Terminator retinue (psycannon)
hmm 575 pts. It's tough for me to swallow, but it's a unit that can get off a mean charge, and throw a good deal of dakka if needed.
we need some Melta for Anti-tank. DH have two options:
Inquisitorial StormTroopers, and IG platoon Commands.
both get the job done. We'll start off with the IST's.
5 IST's w/2Meltaguns 70pts.
Rhino w/E.Armor 55pts
so for 125pts you've got 12" move and disembark meltas. The E. Armor is cheap, and helps you get there.
Since I prefer doubles when creating lists, we'll go with 3 IST's in Rhinos, and 1 without a rhino. We'll put the rhinoless squad inside a borrowed chimera. this is 445pts.
Now to the IG platoon.
we'll go with a melta PCS. 70pts with 4 melta.
and a chimera to ride in. +55pts
that's 125pts total. This squad's got the hitting power of a Chimelta vet squad at fewer bodies, and lower price.
Then for the line squads, putting in Autocannons and Grenade Launchers, for 65pts a squad, you need 2 squads minimum for 130pts. Two more Chimeras for transports is 110pts more. The platoon squad is one You're going to want to pass Ld, so stick in a Commissar for 35pts. total for the squads is 275pts plus the 125pts for the PCS, brings us to 400 for this bit of IG.
with our last 80pts to get us to 1500, we'll add a Special Weapon Squad to the platoon, and add in 2 melta and a Demo Charge. This is only 75pts. That's ok. This squad will ride in a borrowed Chimera.
we're at 1495pts...
. We've got some Long range AT, Shorter range Melta covered, anti-troop covered, and some mobility. it's looking pretty good. We could add some toys, or we could add some Heavy weapon squads, or two more platoon squads.
To go up to 2000pts, I think I want more Heavy Weapons. When I add in Heavy Weapon squads, I am going to want a Ld bubble, to keep them put a little. I'll drop the Commisar (-35pts) and add in a Cannoness and give her a Book of St. Lucius (+50pts, for a net of 15pts)
Next, we'll add Heavy Weapon Squads. Autocannon Heavy Weapon Squads are 75pts a pop. we'll add 3, for 225pts
I could go with more HWT's, or upgrade to Lascannon HWT's.
with 275pts, I'd probably get a GK mini purgation squad. so, 7GK's, 2 w/psycannon, and a Justicar. Stick those guys in cover (no, really), and let them shoot. They can function to protect the IG as well. You could drop a HWT to add 3 more GK's to the squad for more survivability.
Final list looks like:
GK Land Raider Crusader 255pts
Brother Captain (psycannon, Psychic Hood) 320pts
4GK Terminator retinue (psycannon)
5 IST's w/2Meltaguns 70pts.
Rhino w/E.Armor 55pts
5 IST's w/2Meltaguns 70pts.
Rhino w/E.Armor 55pts
5 IST's w/2Meltaguns 70pts.
Rhino w/E.Armor 55pts
5 IST's w/2Meltaguns 70pts.
Chimera (borrowed from Platoon) 55pts
Platoon Command Squad w/4melta 125pts
Chimera
Infantry Squad w/Autocannon, Grenade Launcher 65pt
Infantry Squad w/Autocannon, Grenade Launcher 65pt
Cannoness w/Book of St. Lucius 50pts
Special Weapon Squad w/2 meltaguns, Demo charge 75pts
Chimera (borrowed from Platoon) 55pts
Heavy Weapon squad w/3 autocannons 75pts
Heavy Weapon squad w/3 autocannons 75pts
Heavy Weapon squad w/3 autocannons 75pts
Grey Knight Squad 4 GK's w/stormbolter, 2 GK's w/Psycannon, Justicar 250pts
that leaves 15pts, so I'll give the 3 rhinos smoke for 9pts, and give the Cannoness a CCW and Bolt pistol for 2pts, and the GK justicar a Targeter and Frag grenades for 2 pts.
that's 1998pts, and I'll call it good.
The only part of this list that's not sitting well with me is the GK squad. A Pair of GK Dreads might be better.
You could put in a Pair of GK dreads w/TL Autocannons, E. Armor and Incinerators for 270pts, leaving you with 7pts to play with.
At this point, It's sort of nitpicking.
Needs more lascannons. Nid MCs will laugh at you. :)
ReplyDeletePlaying GK's I still think you are lacking against AV 13 and 14. Like Sandwyrm says, no str 9. I like the list but would go this way at 2000 instead.
ReplyDeleteGK brother captain with psychic hood and retinue of 4. 1 with incinerator and 1 with thunder hammer and SS
5 GH Terminators, 1 with incinerator and 1 with thunderhammer and SS
Landraider Crusader with dozer blade, smoke launchers, and searchlight. 264 points. (For terminators)
Landraider Crusader with dozer blade, smoke launchers, and searchlight. 264 points. (For HQ terminators)
5 IST-2 meltas in borrowed Chimera
5 IST-2 meltas in borrowed Chimera
INF Platoon
Command squad-3 Meltas in Chimera
1st platoon with lascannon and Chimera
2nd platoon with lascannon and Chimera
Heavy weapon squad with 3 lascannons
INF Platoon
Command squad with-4 flamers in Chimera
1st platoon with autocannon
2nd platoon with autocannon
Lemun Russ Battle tank 150 pts.
1998.
Two grey knight terminator squads bearing down on you with 2 crusaders with good fire support with 5 lascannons, 2 autocannons, 3 Chimeras not counting as open topped, Battle Cannon. Just a different approach.
I suffer a bit from 'this is what I've got' syndrome for my GKT's.
ReplyDeleteI've got a BC with Psycannon, and another termie with psycannon. Because I typically use them in a Lol ride or on foot, I don't usually see the need for an incinerator. With them coming out of a LRC though, I can see it.
I don't usually get Dozers or smoke for my GK LRC, since it can move 12", fire it's hurricanes (old rules), and still PotMS the Multimelta.
smokes don't let me shoot anything, and E. Armor is free.
If you're close enough to melta me, I'm close enough to beat on you when I get out.
I might have to get a TH model or two though. I'm waiting for the new codex before I get much stuff though. January might not come fast enough for my liking.
I like the IST's in rhinos because of the old smoke (glances), and so I don't try to keep them alive. They're supposed to get out there, and take down the armor.
a LRBT isn't a bad idea, I think putting down 2 platoons is a bit much to get one though.
I prefer the HWT's with a Ld bubble approach.
Looking at this list more closely, it just seems like a mish-mash. I'd probably do something like:
ReplyDeleteHQ Termies in LRC
Elite Termies in LRC
2 Platoons with Melta PCSs and AC/GL Infantry
2 Platoons with Melta PCSs and Lascannon/Sniper Inf.
Russ (if points allow)
Even so, you'd be infinitely better off just taking those termies and dropping them in as allies to a standard Guard or Marine list. That way you get all the best toys to back up your heroes.
Right now the only think the DH codex is really bringing to the table is the LRC's, and IST's in old smoke rhinos.
ReplyDeleteYou can probably build a better list using IG, or SW's as parent list and Ally in the GKT's.
Even dropping the lone GK squad and getting Lascannons, or Lascannon Dreads isn't that spectacular.
it's kind of too bad that GK's have become so meh.
Yeah, you could drop them into a BA or SW list, but those lists have nastier (and cheaper) assault troops already. :)
ReplyDeleteyeah. that's why GK playstyle has always been to play to your opponent's weakness. GK's are good jack-of-all trades, masters of none.
ReplyDeleteThey can outshoot poor shooting armies, and out assault medium to poor assault armies. But there's not anything they're "Best" at.
and their codex is almost as old as the Dark Eldar codex.
I agree that the list I posted is different than normal black and white analytical player would put on the table, but in my opinion, it is a pretty strong list due to the close combat goodness and excellent firepower for DK. I have never and will never put GK terminators walking across the field in their current state. Why pay for a psycannon when you can get half a chimera for one? 25 points-55 points. When I play my terminators I plan on getting close and using an incinerator. But, I won't play them until the new codex anyways. Any terminators except low point 200 for 5 TH/SS cost too much now days anyways.
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, I wasn't criticizing Spaggy's list. Which looks OK to me. At least as much as any GK list looks OK these days. I really do think even Necrons have better options than the Daemonhunters do at the moment.
ReplyDeleteSpag's list is similar to what I had been working on in my original list.
ReplyDeleteI was using 2 LRC's one with the GKT's, one with a 10-man GK squad with a Justicar with Mastercraft NFW.
That way I had 1 beatstick, and 1 Scoring LRC
Then I was using the 4 Rhino IST's and a Platoon Command, and Special WEapon squads for anti-tank suppport. Long Range fire support provided by a single platoon and Heavy Weapon teams with boltered Ld from a Cannoness with Book of St. Lucius.
in the end, you could pretty much do something similar (and better) with IG taking GK's as allies. GK's are a good substitute for Ogryn aren't they?