Ok, so if I understand the latest rumors correctly, at 2000 points you can take a 2nd FOC, and allies may actually be in addition to this. So... let's see what broken combos we can come up with. I'll start us off.
1) Sanguinary Guard + Tau Crisis Suits
This one I'm really looking forward to. Everyone's jumpy, the Tau have awesome firepower, and if you put enough shield drones on the Crisis Suits, they get VERY annoying to deal with. By the time you do, the SangGuard are in your face. :)
2) 12-18 Obliterators + Fateweaver + Chaos Bastion
Ugh! This one gives me heartburn. What's more annoying than playing against Fateweaver? Well, how about 3+ cover with re-rolls for one of the nastiest shooting units in the game? Add in some Bloodcrushers and... ugh!
3) Orks with 90 Lootas In A Bastion or Aegis Defense Line
Gonna happen. Gonna suck too. Especially if they can take a Farseer too. :/
4) Eldar Runes of Warding For Everyone.
This is actually a good thing, since
5) Blood Angels + IG
Decent of Angels + Astropath = 2+ reserve rolls for the 2/3rds of your jumpers that you put in a single reserve group. Fun!
6) IG + Grey Knights
Though henchmen were annoying? Now they get actual melta-vets.
What else can we come up with?
I'll wait to read the full rules before I try to break the game.ReplyDelete
Awe. You're no fun!Delete
This. There are a lot of assumptions in this post about allies.Delete
There are always going to be these very competitive units even without allies. My typical response to someone fielding one of them is, "You're really going to take that? Seems cheap."
That's the way to counter the fail amongst friends in a basement. Been there, done that. But competitive play depends on everyone playing by the same rules, good or bad.Delete
A fair amount of what's assumed in the post is already known to be incorrect, anyhow.Delete
The amount of freakout over Allies is just full-blown stupid. We already know there will be heavy restrictions placed on most pairings, but people are forgetting the far more important bit:
If those restrictions aren't heavy enough to avoid breaking the game...nobody will use the allies rules. They'll be a fun thing you CAN do, like Apocalypse or any of the other expansions.
People are acting like the fact that they're in the core rulebook means everyone will absolutely be forced to use them under any conceivable circumstances for all times. I give it a month before the meta shakes out and all the big tournaments start making decisions as to whether or not they're allow allies, with a heavy personal prediction towards "no."
Of course anyone is allowed to not use anything from the rulebook at any time, and I do expect to see the worst rules simply ignored by some/many.Delete
But the issue is standardization. Some TOs will like the new terrain rules, for instance, because they're also store owners who want to sell models. Ditto with allies. It's in their interest to sell the new bling.
TOs (gamers) who seek competitive purity (NOVA), however, may nix some or all of those. So it multiplies the number of 40K versions that you have to plan/purchase for and keep track of. Which further balkenizes our little hobby right back to where we were 3 years ago when every tourney's comp was different and you had to deal with everyone's house rules. Instead of one big 40K community, we'll have many little ones where each distrusts the other.
You're making the assumption that the split will be anywhere near 50/50. It won't be. Six months from now, I'd be willing to bet that there won't even be anything resembling a split.Delete
We have Spearhead tournaments every now and then at G2D4; it has not fractured the playerbase or motivated people to rush out and buy a new set of toys solely to play Spearhead. If the Allies rules are terrible, that's about the same level they'll be viewed on.
And comparing "not using Allies" to house rules/serious comp is just outrageous. Allies are a completely self-contained subset of the rules; you're not modifying the game by not using them. Did every game of 5th Edition you ever played have both a Road and a Building in it? A real Building, not a Ruin--there's about five pages in the rulebook that explain how Buildings work and 90% of the players don't even know they exist. Those are both things in the core rulebook, and nobody thinks it's a huge deal to choose not to use them, because it's absolutely not a huge deal.
Some thoughts other than just general snarkyness...ReplyDelete
I'm not too scared of the allies system. Yes there seem to be some potentially scary combos at this point, but you don't get your allied units for free. You're going to have to give up X points from your own codex to get X points from someone else. Imperial armies have so many toys as it is; I don't think it's going to really effect them too much. It will end up being essential for Xenos since so many of them are missing essential components to be competitive.
Take your BA/Tau example from above. Battle Suits are good, but they are expensive. Especially when you start kitting them out with all the bling. You'll find yourself going back to stuff out of your own codex because your stuff can do the same job more efficiently.
On the other hand, my Eldar might be in a bad place if I can't ally in some flyers or Hydras. And the armies not invited to the psysker party will be in trouble if they can't bring in a Farseer or Librarian.
My 6 support Speeders currently cost me 460 points for 4 Multi-Meltas, 4 Heavy Flamers, 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers, and 2 Heavy Bolters. On what are (mobility advantages aside) relatively fragile platforms.Delete
For 470 points, I can get:
XV8 Shas’el w/HW Drone Controller, 2 Shield Drones, TL Missile Pod, Fusion Blaster
XV8 Bodyguard Team (2) w/Fusion Blasters, TL Missile Pods
6 Fire Warriors
2 XV88 Broadsides w/Drone Controllers, 2 Shield Drones
Now the Broadsides can sit at the back of the table and kill Land Raiders. While I have a cheap objective-holding unit, and a great medium-range fire-support unit that can jump around with the Sang Guard and play peek-a-boo where needed.
That's a lot more firepower, for fewer points, than anything I could do by adding in Imperial Guard.
3 extra meltaguns and two rail guns isn't that scary for nearly 500 points.Delete
It's the range and survivability that's scary.Delete
The survivabilty on those suits is not that great. The Broadsides are tougher, but if you can kill terminators, you can kill broadsides.Delete
Also remember that wound allocation is going to be different. It may be easier to mitigate shield drones--not that they where all that great to start with.
And it's not necessarily a bad detachment, just not a broken one.Delete
Shield drones give you ablative wounds on a unit that's already going to sit in cover and shoot. You have to pour a lot of fire into those broadsides while the flying terminators are coming for you.Delete
It's the combo that's potentially broken, not the detachment itself. Normally Broadsides and XV8's don't have first-class assault troops to hide behind.
Which is completely mitigated by me taking some Sang Gaurd as allies for my Tau. It works both ways. It's not broken if I can do it too.Delete
The shield drones can be overwhelmed quite easily. A 4 missile dev squad will take out one suit from your bodyguard squad on average and take a shield drone along for the ride.
I'd probably just ignore the Broadsides. Let them have their tank a turn.
It's broken compared to armies that don't/can't take such allies. Plus it costs money to do.Delete
On average, in the open, you'll hit 2 drones and kill one. That's assuming you can even see me, that I'm not in cover, and that you don't have Sang Guard in your face. :)
Going to second that...speculation isn't going to get us anyhwere. Additionally, it is KNOWN that it is either 2 F.O.C. or allies so 12 Obliterators would not have access to Fateweaver.ReplyDelete
Haven't heard about the either/or restriction till now. Makes sense, but until we see the rules...Delete
Don't know about either/or- Apparently you can only take the 2nd force organisation slot at 2000 points or higher though. (Quick fix- I'll be playing 1850 pts for a while!)Delete
I expect to see NOVA and most other tourney going to 1999 points to nix allies.Delete
Orks with Necrons- specifically, Lord + Cryptek (solar pulse) + warriors in Night Scythe. Another flyer, a turn of night fight for the Orks, accurate shooting, and Tesla.ReplyDelete
Anything + Thunder WolvesReplyDelete
Guardsmen (think 1st rank, 2nd rank) + Farseer with guide/ doom.
Hell, any army with + cheap-o Farseer
SW missile SPAM backed up by Broadsides...ReplyDelete
Because if brute force isn't working, then you're just not using enough!
Chaos Demons + Chaos....think 4 demon princes or 3 soulcrushers & 1 defiler.ReplyDelete
Guard + vulkan (for all the melta gun veteran squads out there)
The limits of stupidity are epic for this combo stuff. Hopefully there are some descent rules to quell the combo craziness?
Vulkan only works on units with combat/chapter tactics.Delete
Now in my IG codex my Guardsmen sure as hell don't have chapter tactics.....
Would not work. Thank God.Delete
Thank you for the oh so polite correction MC Tic Tac.Delete
Since we are all unsure how this ally stuff will shake out, who knows what will work and what won't. Sure the 5th ed rules say what can and can't be used with a codex. It is the 6th ed rules that will matter. Maybe Vulkan will work with non-chapter tactics. This is spit balling shenanigans anyway.Delete
I had an issue come up like this at a tournament yesterday. My opponent claimed that the Multi-Melta on my LRCrusader was not twin-linked from Vulkan. I had to point out to him that models with Combat Tactics lose it and ALL Flamers, Heavy Flamers, Melta and Multi-Melta IN THE ARMY count as twin-linked, not just ones carried by someone who lost Combat Tactics.Delete
So the question here would be if the IG count as being in "the army" or separate.
I'm taking solice in how restrictive the 'Allies' rules are for the GW run doubles tournaments. Below is a transcript of Email conversation with Warhammer World Events Team regarding restrictions on allies/parent force interaction. As can be seen, its pretty brutal in that no IC's joining allies units, no using allies transports and no sharing special rules (clears up the Vulkan issue which is why I posted this)Delete
Obviously this is re 5th and specific to an event, but it certainly implies they have carefully considered the implications of allies. Enjoy.
p.s. Scroll to the bottom and work back up if you want the conversation in order.
There is no interaction between Forces at all, the stubborn rules wouldnt cross over either :)
the exception is things like Kustom Force Fields as that affects EVERY unit not just friendly units. stuff like that is fine.
The date we have penciled in for Sept is 8th - 9th but thats not in stone until we publish it :)
On 1 May 2012 14:21, Paul Hughes <wrote:
…and I’ve just sent it through to you again Adam, sorry for the Email spam!
Thanks for clarifying that for us. Its what was expected, but if you don’t ask…
Whilst I’ve got you, just to confirm does this mean no member of the two forces can benefit from the special rules granted by units from the opposite force? i.e. a unit of Orks within 6” of a Lord Commisar would not benefit from his stubborn ability.
And just finally, is there a set/ear marked date in September for the event yet? The misses is wanting us to go on holiday in September but I won’t let her book anything until we have a date for the Doubles Tourney! (which clearly she just simply doesn’t understand!)
Thanks again Adam, you’ve been more than helpful (if somewhat disappointing!)
From: Warhammer World Events [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: 01 May 2012 14:11
To: Paul Hughes
Subject: Re: FW: Doubles Tournament Rules Query
i have just replied to one of your e-mail about this a second ago :)
firstly:Transports, you cannot use your allies transport vehicles at all. this rulling has had to be made following grevious abuse at the previous doubles, the same goes for the special rule cross over. The Imperial guard character cannot join the unit of Orks (no self respecting Ork would be lead into combat by anything smaller than its self, its just not Orky enough!) and visa versa, a Warboss elading a unit of guardsmen into combat is simply wrong.
I hope this clears up your questions and i apologise if its not what you wanted to hear but this message has been passed onto everyone who is attending the event.
Is Adam on the design team? No? Was the design team even consulted?Delete
Maybe, but GW's history says no. It's departments don't talk to each other. Most likely (like their old tournament system), those decisions are coming from the sales team, and not the designers.
So don't assume there's a link between this decision and what the designers have decided to do.
I am going to bet on the competitive scene breaking down into fractions where Terrain/allies/2FoC are each allowed/not allowed. add on top of that the W/L vs. BP systems, and sprinkle on some new 'needs' for comp, and you've effectively fractured the tourney scene.ReplyDelete
I'm inclined to say that tournaments should let it all in-at least at first. Tournaments tend to be the best ways to figure out what works or not. We need data before we go in and start disallowing things. It will be rough for a year or so, but it was that way with 5th edition too.Delete
5th Edition saw a movement away from comp towards more standardized formats, whether that was straight NOVA or something Adepticon-ish. Now... well even folks like me who hated comp in 5th are going to be forced to admit that we need limits, which nobody will agree on for at least a year or two. So in terms of building a competitive community around 40K, we take took 2 steps forward in 5th, only to have to take 3 steps back in 6th.Delete
It's the competitive community I care about, not this sucky game.
I think it's premature to call it DOA before we've had the first tournament; let alone read the rule book.Delete
It's also important to remember that these 'broken' allies combos aren't going to be facing your current 5th ed armies. They are going to be facing your own broken combo, whatever that happens to be. So why not run tourneys with all the new rules? If a player doesn't take advantage of allies etc., it's their own fault.ReplyDelete
Smart move by GW to increase sales. This encourages people with only one or two armies to look into a third or fourth to make winning combinations. It also kind of rewards those long time players that have invested in numerous armies. I imagine these players will have a lot of fun pulling dusty models off their shelves and exploring the new possibilities.
You're assuming that most players are both pleased and willing to splash out for new models right now in a bad economy. Replacing 25% of your army for a new edition isn't the same thing as replacing 50-75% of your army. Plus terrain shenanigans and higher-priced rulebooks.Delete
If GW alienates more players than it empowers, then their buy-more-stuff design won't be a smart move at all. I'm certainly not going to pay to play at the current prices. There are better values for my money elsewhere, and I'm squarely in GW's income demographic.
Personally I don't want to be froced to take another army with my army, just to have a fair fight. It is my fault if I don't take allies that I don't want or have?Delete
I don't play fantasy due to the having to take multiple wizards in an army. If this is where 40K is going, I'll not want to play it either. I don't want to be forced to add unwanted units to my army.
I guess I'm wyrd and like to play a pure army and still make a game of it.
And... What broken combo do the Tyranids get access to? One more unit of Hive Guard? Oh boy! Sign me up!Delete
That's an army I didn't buy right there because of their crappy codex. This does nothing to make it better.
Guided Broadsides Vulkan'd MeltaVets, Hydras for Orks, Epidimius making Plague Marine Bolters and Pistols ignore armour saves?ReplyDelete
Deathwing with FnP bubbles, IG with Purifiers...anything else?
I thought a Purifier Mech inf. list swapping rides with Chimera meltavets would be pretty annoying. or even SWS's from platoons, and platoon commands.Delete
or markerlights and oblits.
6 exorcists in a force! yeah I lol'd too.
Since both are Imperium buddies, just swap the melta vets into Vendettas or put the Purifiers in the birds at the start of the game.Delete
All good points. Fortunately, everyone is playing by choice (speaking of choice, I'm enjoying reading through the M42 content). If anyone wants a free start to a BA ally force, check this out:ReplyDelete
And the annoying complaining has begun. Wow! Allies could be fun, it could not. We don't know yet. Either adapt to what is coming or quit. Stop worrying, stop complaining, and hide in a hole somewhere.ReplyDelete
Wow! The annoying fanboy-ism has begun! Got some more cheerleaders for us?Delete
This post has been a great one until:Delete
"You're assuming that most players are both pleased and willing to splash out for new models right now in a bad economy. Replacing 25% of your army for a new edition isn't the same thing as replacing 50-75% of your army. Plus terrain shenanigans and higher-priced rulebooks."
"If GW alienates more players than it empowers, then their buy-more-stuff design won't be a smart move at all. I'm certainly not going to pay to play at the current prices. There are better values for my money elsewhere, and I'm squarely in GW's income demographic."
I like the ideas of putting some of my stuff together in a fun environment. Will TO's allow everything we want? Maybe. Who knows for sure. We will all find out soon enough.
And you are assuming players will not want to spend the money for whatever. 40k giveway's comments are valid in that this is a great strategy to increase revenue. But can we truly make an ASSumption until we have the entire set of rules in our hands.... we can, but then it is an ASSumption.
But the intention of the post is awesome and I have enjoyed reading a majority of it.
I think rangers as the troops to go along with the allied Farseer is pretty nice. They get to allocate any to hit roll of a 6 and it's AP1! Squat them on an objective and guide them up and let the character sniping begin! What army couldn't benefit from that, especially for a bargain basement 185pts?!ReplyDelete
Tau with Ork Boy support, replacing the Kroot. Cause let's face it, while they're both green and can be taken in large numbers, and Ork Boy costs about half of a Kroot Warrior, and is about twice as affective in CC.ReplyDelete
The best part is that all bets are off. Game on! Allies present the hobby lover a chance to do a cool army, and the WAAC a chance to break the crap out of the game. I for one like doing both. Win for Jawaballs!ReplyDelete
Now THAT is how you do a positive reply. ;)Delete
I can't wait to see looted IG tanks in an Ork army again. :)Delete
While that's true to an extent dude, those of us who really love the hobby weren't/aren't prevented from doing what we find cool by rules anyway.Delete
I didn't sit and build a Dark Angels Librarian 8 or 9 months back cos they're good or because I had advance warning Psykers would be arguably better in 6th - I did it because the bits are cool, and my favourite part of the hobby is converting.
I have planned out Ork 'Counts As' armies for nearly all of the 5e Codexes, because some day I want to own an Ork army for each Codex in the game. The only thing stopping me has been money. If I'd won the lottery, trust me, that would have happened within months, maybe weeks if I could find people to build to my specs.
Fortuned Shadowfield Archon plus Warlock bodyguard.... owies.ReplyDelete
The nerd rage is strong in this post. heheReplyDelete
Shhhhhhh... They'll hear you!Delete
Repeat after me:
"40K is the funnest, most balanced, most professionally produced, and reasonably priced miniatures wargame on the market. So sayeth the Kirby, so it must me true!"
I don't even know why I keep up with this blog. Oh, yeah, it's because of posts by people who actually enjoy 40k like Spag, Anonymous Foodie and Outremer! These posts bashing GW and the game that is in the NAME OF YOUR BLOG, based only on rumor and conjecture, make no sense to me. Call me a fanboy, if you want, but I'd like to be able to come to "The Back 40K" and actually read something positive about 40K.ReplyDelete
Once we have the book and once we actually get a few month's worth of games in, I'll bother reading posts about how broken the new edition of the game is. Once we have NOVA's and Adepticon's rules, then I'll worry about the competitive environment and how there are too many variations on tournament rules (aren't there already several rules "sets" for the big tournaments?).
Maybe there needs to be a "The Back FoW" blog so we can reduce the noise to signal ratio here on "The Back 40K".
On a positive note, I am excited about 6th edition 40K. I look forward to everyone starting off on a level playing field. Much like FOW's recent 3rd edition, everyone will have equal time to figure out broken combos and rules loopholes to abuse.
we can go back to not posting about 40k for months as the GW news blackout continues...Delete
but we're fans. we talk. we conjecture. If something about the game we like is good, we call it good. If something smells like crap. I'm gonna call crap. There are a lot of things coming out as rumor that give me pause as a fan of 40K. Here in the Back40, we TALK about 'em.
and when I get my hands on the 6th ed rules, I'll end up talking to MVB (NOVA) about 'em. I might even get ahold of Matthias (Adepticon) after I talk to Mike a bit about a direction for the tournament scene to go in.
As for the name... The Name of the blog was derived from the fact that I grew up on a farm, and farming. For me, a Back 40 is that place a bit off the main road, where on the farm you can try out the stuff you're not so sure you want the neighbors to see all the time.
New crops, new chemicals, new tillage, new fertilization schemes... all get tried out on the Back 40 first. It's a testing ground, and a sounding board.
When I started the Back40K, I primarily played 40K.
I aired my crazy strategies here. Like light armor saturation. (also known as rhino or chimera spam now) those thoughts all started back in 4th ed. 5th ed was kind to my forces. actually, the change from 4th to 5th wasn't terribly great. I played some other games as well. I tried Confrontation. It didn't do it for me. Neither did first ed. Warmahordes. Flames of War was a game I really wanted to try, but only knew two guys in Champaign that played.
but anyway, your supposition about the origins of the blog name are sort of correct, but sort of not.
The Back 40K is a twist on mainly the phrase "the back 40", not on 40K. There never will be a Back FoW. We have a lot of people who like to hear about FoW as well as 40K. And if you look, a lot of the main "40K" blogs (3++, YTTH, BoLS) all deal with other games. We're no different. I remember Big Red saying they were going to diversify further away from GW last year in an e-mail. They've done it, We've done it, and a lot of other sites have as well.
after several years of price increases, and poor codex/rules balance choices, I'm not whole hog gung-ho GW fanboy. I never have been. never will be. as far as GW product, I'm hedging my bets, and diversifying my gaming. because I'm primarily a gamer.
I'll tell you guys my honest opinion, because that's what you do out in the back 40. and even more so in the back 40K.
This blog has been central to the local 40K community. It does kind of suck to come to the site and see every other post poo-pooing over 6th edition before it's even out.Delete
I have my reservations about 6th, but I at least want to read the full rules and try it out before I declare it utterly broken--if it is in fact utterly broken.
Can we just chill on this for another 4 days and then start the whining. When we can at least make substantive arguments based on the actual rules.
It's not whining. It's criticism. Whining is "Awe 6th sucks!" Criticism is "6th is worrying because...".Delete
If the rules come out and are actually awesome, I'll say so. If not, I'll criticize them with the wording of the actual rules as a basis.
Right now, all we have are the rumors, so I'm reacting to them. From my standpoint, this was supposed to be a fun, cheeky post that would allow folks to blow off steam while we wait. Instead, you guys are taking it much too seriously.
"I look forward to everyone starting off on a level playing field. " - Thanks. This comment has determined which article I do about how 6th is being willfully and damagingly misrepresented by the community next. :)Delete
Some people never get the point. This is a time of mystery and excitement. Why should the best blog in Indiana always seem like it is trying to ruin it?Delete
Here's a point that you're not getting:Delete
It's only a time of mystery and excitement if you have some cash to burn and have an army that already performs well. If you don't, then the excitement will eventually turn to disappointment and anger once you realize that nothing has really changed, balance-wise, in the game.
Singing "Happy Happy Joy Joy" won't change that fact.
Hulk John hate GW!!!!!!!! Hulk John punch puny Kirby with fist!!!!!! Hulk John want GW leave him alone. Hulk JOhn SMASH!!!!!!!!! Hulk John turns around and breaks through wall and tramples Kool-Aid man as he makes terrain for his new games of 40K.ReplyDelete
Is that cheeky enough? hehe.
In all honesty I think Caulynn and Spag have it right. Calm the talk down and just wait. But these are nerds we are talking about, we LOVE our games. And some especially go all penis raging when it comes to 40k or other games. I should know, I can smell my own kind. So in the end, no matter how much bitching people do with the benefits OR drawbacks of 40K its still gonna happen, much like how most of us are gonna go to bed and wake up the next morning. Its inevitable. So is bitching about 40K.
So says the guy who's quit... twice. :PDelete
Do you really want to go into this again sandy. i quit first because of personal reasons and needed money. Not to mention I just got tired of doing the same thing. I quit playing Necrons cause, well they just don't work for me. So when orks come out again in another year, I will try it again. I will see if I like it as much as I did last time and will try it all over again. I never rage quit, and especially didn't this second time. I just didn't like the feel of Necrons, and frankly that was the ONLY reason I sold them. Not because I'm all nerd raging on how shitty this edition is going to be and how much its gonna kill my army. I wanted to play something else. Haven't put down 40K, I just wanted to try something different. Thats it....there you have it, the truth. So by all means continue to post all the shitty things that GW is doing and how they don't know what they are doing, everyone has their own opinion.Delete
I'm in a weird position I guess as I have 7 full sized armies that I've collected over the years... So Allies are something that might be neat. I do not know how it will all shake out, but I suspect that some of the more obvious things like guided (from Eldar) IG melta vets or Long Fangs won't work, but that assumes a bit I guess... FnP for my Grey Hunters might though, but not sure that is a game breakingly (yeah, probably not a real word, but I'm an engineer not an English major) powerful thing... In any case it will give me more combinations to try before getting bored like I had with a lot of the 5th ed things...ReplyDelete
If TO's wind up playing many different flavors, or of the local groups decide to do so, might be a very bad thing, and since GW is out of the tournament business themselves, the lack of "official" guidance might hurt more... Dunno, hoping 40K makes it through the version change...