Well, like clockwork, the yearly GW price increase has come, as it always does. According to the spreadsheet I'm looking at though, they've done something that's pretty darn unusual for Games Workshop.
Paints, brushes, and associated items have risen an average of 8.23%. With most of the GW paints moving from $3.70 to $4.00. Which isn't so bad really. The biggest increases are for the Large Brush, and the Wash Brush. Which have both gone up 25% to $8.25.
Buuuuuuuut... That's it.
Wait! What?
Yep, GW is NOT raising the prices on anything else. At least not in the USA, according to the info I have.
Is this a sign of poor overall sales for their miniature ranges? Could be... could be. Certainly it's out of character for GW as a company.
Thoughts?
How is that fail?
ReplyDeleteIts not fail in and of itself, unless you're still buying their paints. But it's not quite the positive step of actually lowering prices.
DeleteThis move though, might indicate problems internally from a general drop in sales. Which (if true) would indicate the failure of their design/sales strategy over the last year or so. Certainly, I'm not seeing a whole lot of excitement in the competitive community over the new Eldar Codex.
Time will tell. Everything is speculation until we see their half-year numbers in another month or so.
It could have something to do with the changes in leadership within GW. Just my guess though.
ReplyDeleteKirby was CEO 2 years ago, now he's CEO again. Wells was only in that chair for about a year before he left. So it's really the same old crew running things still.
DeleteIf someone brand new had been hired when Wells left, I'd be more willing to entertain the idea that GW really wants to change how it does things. But without that, I have to see this as a departure from what GW has always done every year previously. Which would only happen if a drop in sales was erasing the gains from their increased margins.
I'll pay a touch more for white paint that can easily paint over a black primer.
ReplyDeleteAnd there was a year when GW actually lowered some prices... oof, that was back in the day... though I'm glad things seem to be going in this direction.
I only ever buy Devlin Mud (or whatever its new name is) anymore. So this means I pay $.90 extra a year.
DeleteWhat year did they lower prices? I don't remember that one.
It's more likely that they're trying to be sneakier about the price increases and rolling them out with the new/faster release schedule. Just a thought...
ReplyDeleteYeah, but they've always done that.
DeleteThink of it as a continuum. If business as usual is "re-box stuff for releases AND raise all other prices x% once a year", then this move shows a fallback to only re-boxing stuff during the releases. If sales don't improve, they might stop re-boxing stuff too. Keeping prices steady across the board.
If things got really bad, they'd probably re-box items or lower costs just for new releases. Lowering all prices generally would be the last-resort for them, and would indicate that the company was REALLY hurting for sales. But Kirby would probably get kicked to the curb well before then.
Re-box items the other way, I meant to say. Instead of cutting the number of models in a box, they would add more instead to increase the value, but keep the costs the same.
DeleteI think everyone at our club (myself included) is pretty stoked for the new Eldar dex.
ReplyDeleteThe new models are pretty thin on the ground though, I hope there's more. New aspect warriors, especially swooping hawks, and some new jetbikes are sorely needed.
I dunno, even the BoLS crowd doesn't seem real excited overall by the scans that have leaked, and the YTTH crowd is running about 98% negative about the book.
DeleteHave you ever seen the YTTH crowd positive about anything? I would hardly use that as my gauge...
DeleteI actually like the book, they avoided the traditional nerf what's popular and boost all the new models, and instead wrote a book leveling the power basis and keeping old models still relevant.
I won't argue your points about the book, as I'm not playing 6th, and I haven't done much more than glance at the leaks.
DeleteBut I do know the YTTH crowd, and their current mood is NOT typical. I've been following that site since '08, and this is a definite downturn in morale. Plus, the very same complaints are showing up on BoLS and getting far more traction than usual there.
I'll also point to the excitement that folks had about the last 4 releases, which all turned to "meh" with time.
Because they're all so focused on the bulletproof army that exceeds Necron power levels. Tau which YTTH universally panned is now being touted as overpowered, while the truth is probably somewhere in between. With the exception of a poorly FAQd helldrake, the whole of the new release for 6th are all viable. Are any of them the world beaters that Necrons are? No, but they are all balanced against one another. We'll see in a year if the trend continues, but I'm seeing some of the most balanced army builds I've ever seen and once the wonkyness of learning the 6th edition passed some of the most fun games.
DeleteIf you mean that they're focused on competition, yes you're right. But the only way you're going to know how a book stacks up is by asking competitive gamers what they think of it. Because they think on a national level, not a local gamestore or basement one.
DeleteAnd the consensus seems to be that Chaos Marines are viable, but pretty much a mono-build. Tau and DA are ally-books, not something that you can take as a primary and do real well with. Eldar seem overall a little bit better than they were, but they needed to be a LOT better instead.
While I used to find decent competitive insight there 3-5 years ago, I think you'd be hard pressed to find the same there today. I would also argue that the group there doesn't represent a competitive cross section of gamers. Rather you have a head blogger that plays in one or two competitive events a year (who only loses when he is cheated by terrain or purposefully brings a sub-optimal list to "instruct" everyone), and a whole bunch of guys who rarely if ever play Ina tournament. The only poster who has ever performed significantly well, is also one of your main writers and more often than not seems to be holding a divergent view than the group...
DeleteDiatribe aside, I think Necron dominance will be challenged by the Tau. Not that the Tau match up particularly well with everyone, but the tool set they have been given matches up very well with the mono-build you see from Necrons.wraiths (and their destroyer lord bullet magnet) die from weight of fire. Something Tau do well from range and with good strength. When you add in the significant amounts of interceptor fire they can also provide a very challenging environment for necron flyers.
The new Eldar codex is pretty awful. It's not devoid of a few good units, but it is a very bland disappointment. Too many units where a copy-paste forward with very little alterations. Many of the units in the codex are unplayable or vastly overpriced, and those that are playable all fight for the same foc slots.
DeleteAnd Tau are a pretty good army, but they are still flawed. Mostly thanks to having poor troop options. So unless you want to play 120 Kroot, you need to ally something better. While I like most of what they did with the Tau book; unfortunately, they are not a standalone competitive army.
Well, I just downloaded the free preview of the Iyandian supplement.
DeleteAnd... Matt Ward is listed as the designer.
Maybe there's some hope for your Eldar yet. Just don't try and read the fluff. :)
6th edition poured a lot of water on the whole "Ward = OP" arguments.
DeleteWith Eldar the reasons to be cheerful are so plentiful. Guardians are hella-buffed. Shruiken weapons in general are amazing now. The new battle focus rule sounds like a lot of fun. War-walkers can basically do a foot version of JSJ now.
Troops can disembark from a transport, shoot, then duck behind it again, or nip behind a wall.
The army is a finesse army. More so than ever. If you're into it then Eldar will be a ton of fun to play, if not, well you probably weren't interested before either.
Maybe they had such a good year that they thought that maybe getting everyone made at them again was not required. They had 6th ed 40K and tons of releases compared to Dreadfleet and not that many last year so they should easily beat last years numbers.
ReplyDeleteThat's a possibility.
DeleteBut it's also possible that they've been rushing new releases out to try and shore up a general sales decline. More releases only equates to more overall sales if enough people are buying them.
Maybe they're keeping up, I dunno. But I don't think that GW is going to care about their PR image when sales are good, only when they slip.
Overall I think it is very interesting that an annual price increase only encompassed paints and brushes.
DeleteQuestion: Did your spreadsheet include any data for Forgeworld, out of curiosity?
Not that I can see. It's a list of products for retail stores, and FW is mail-order only.
DeleteGW's aggressive release schedule has seen them including the price hike into the retail price for every new product they released.
ReplyDeleteConsider this a ninja price hike, but eventually they will raise prices for most of the old existing kits to "bring them on par" with the prices of the newer kits.
Let's all take it as a given the GW's yearly price increase is not driven by economic demands. It's perfectly possible that the increase is necessitated by internal politics or investor relations, but it isn't directly related to manufacturing costs. And that's what makes this so interesting. Since GW has the flexibility to increase prices or not the fact that they've chosen not to means that something has changed in their business calculations.
ReplyDeleteSince I don't know what the logic was behind the price increases in the first place I really can't say what could have caused this turn of events. Like everyone else, my guess is that it relates to the new strategy of constantly turning out new releases. Either it (and 6th) has been so successful that they don't want to risk disrupting the cash flow or it has been a failure and they don't want to risk alienating any more customers.
Certainly most people seem underwhelmed by what's been coming out from GW of late, but underwhelmed doesn't necessarily mean not buying. We also don't know what's been going on with The Hobbit(tm) other than the fact that it appears to be a flop. Who knows what kind of expenses, and potentially losses were incured there.
GW has a loyal fanbase that has been keeping them in business for the past 10 years.
DeleteTo their loyal fanbase, GW can do no wrong.
I have met the worst of the fanboys and its no wonder GW don't care about the other 1/2 of their customer base.
I think GW knows that all they need is to satisfy their "true fanbase" and those guys buy any shit GW makes.
The revolving customer base comes and goes, and GW are totally fine with that, because that customer base has already spent their money and they will be replaced by the next schmuck that will fill those shoes nicely.
While harsh, I wouldn't call that an unfair assessment. I don't know of GW truly doesn't care about the non-fanatical portion of it's fan base, so much as they either don't know how to hold on to them, or think it wouldn't be cost effective to try to do so. GW's long running denial of the rest of the wargaming world was probably an attempt to hold on to less loyal customers, but thanks to the internet that really isn't plausible anymore.
DeleteOf course, if my business had the support of a bunch of people who would pay anything I asked for anything I put out I might not be much inclined to worry about anyone else either. That said word on the internet is that most of GW's income comes from the churned and burned people that show up, drop a ton of cash, and then lose interest. Of course, I have no idea if that is actually true.
Here's something else to think about: Kickstarters
DeleteThe casual guys I know who traditionally buy everything GW puts out are going wild on kickstarters these days. Maybe that's having an impact too?
Kickstarter is something that we could discuss for a long time. Even if the wave of Kickstarters isn't cutting into GW's revenue yet, it's going to drastically alter their competition. Generally speaking, wargames companies don't have a lot of capital, but Kickstarters are giving them access to what amounts to interest free business loans. The result is going to be a lot more very professionally produced stuff coming out in the next few years that can compete with GW's level of glitz and gloss. That's already been happening for a while, but it's going to accelerate. That means that for the first time in decades GW might be forced to actually compete for market share.
DeleteMaybe we can get CaulynDarr to write something up on kickstarters. He knows a lot more about the process than I do.
DeleteI agree with some of the other comments made. It looks like GW is ajusting their prices with each release now rather than all at once. You can see some price drops and hikes with eldar. The new Wraithguard/blade kit is about 50% less than buying 5 blisters was before, but Dire Avengers stayed the same price and you get 1/2 the models.
ReplyDeleteI think this is a better method for them as it does not get the entire community up-set at the same time and the end up with the same result, higher prices.
It's a better method, sure. But they were already doing this AND raising prices once a year across the board. Now they're just raising (or lowering) prices for specific releases.
DeleteTo me, it says that their previous time-tested method is no longer working for them. Which is what I find interesting.
I would like to add that with the release of combo box sets with the launch of Eldar, those units saw a price drop.
ReplyDelete1) Space Marine Bikes -- used to be $45 for 3 now it is $40
2) Space Marine Scout Bikes -- used to be $45 for 3 now it is $40
3) Chaos Space Marine Bikes -- used to be $45 for 3 now it is $40
4) Necron Destroyers -- used to be $60 for 3 now it is $50
5) Eldar Jetbikes -- used to be $45 for 3 now it is $40
6) Eldar Artillery -- used to be $60 for 3 now it is $50
7) Eldar Vypers -- used to be $90 for 3 and now it is $75
8) Eldar Warwalkers -- used to be $90 for 3 and now it is $75
Then there was also the Tau Crisis Suit drop. 3x suits used to be $75 and now they are being sold for $65.
Outside the Dire Avengers which are horrifically priced, everything is going about the same as last year and in several cases lowering in price. Now only if we could get combo box sets of some vehicles (rhinos and drop pods anyone?)
Thanks, I'd heard that some sets had dropped, but they weren't called out in my list. So I didn't try and guess what the drops were based on the GW website and my imperfect memory of what they used to be.
DeleteNice frosty! Crickets.... but really only a price in Paints is a good thing imho..
ReplyDeleteNo crickets. This post isn't really about price up/down = whatever. Lower prices are good for the customers. It's also good, I think, for GW in the long run. But my interest lies in the change of strategy this indicates.
DeleteWhen a person or company does something one way for as long as you can remember, and then suddenly starts doing it another, then you start wondering what's up.
I'm pessimistic as to what that something might be. Maybe GW has raked in huge amounts of profit this year and just wants to help out the fans. Cool. But I don't see any basis for thinking that. It's more likely that some of their numbers are down. Probably not by any bone-shattering amount, if at all. Because GW is very good at making their numbers shine. But if they post another 5-ish% gain in profits after pushing out this much product, we'll know that they're having to work harder to tread water.
I just bought crickets....but they are for my spider to eat..... MOAR BIOMASS!
DeleteWhat kind of spider?
DeletePhidippus audax. Aka a 1.5 inch jumping spider.
Delete(looks up pics of phidippus audax)
DeleteThat has to be the friendliest looking spider I've ever seen!
I personally dont think GW is doing poorly from a sales stand point. I place a weekly order with them and they hardly have all the trade items I need because they cant keep them in stock. I think 6th overall has been huge for them. I sold have sold 120+ starters since it came out. When I was still selling online I did $6000 in the 2 weeks after Dark Angels came out. Im not a GW fan boy. I love 40k mostly for the story and models. All that being said I hate their business practices and sometimes wish they would bite them in the ass but I dont think thats happening. Also dont forget that Forge World has been knocking it out of the park with the Horus Heresy release not to mention that the Black Library is doing extremely well. Now with all that in mind they might still be screwing up and not making money but its not form lack of sales.
DeleteThe DV starter set was a really good deal.
DeleteTo be realistic though, stock shortages can mean a lot of things.
We'll see what the numbers are in July. My bet is that their profits will be about the same, maybe a few points higher.
I will agree though that anyone looking for "justice" from a GW fall is going to be waiting a long time. I don't see them falling anytime soon.
@slate bank. Very astute observations. I agree totally. In fact I have changed my list to counter tau.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't need to raise prices.
ReplyDeleteThey just released their first model that breaks the 100 barrier for a model intended for use in REGULAR 40k, and they re-packed Dire Avengers so they're basically double the price.
Space Marines are on the way, and if the Eldar got ONE 100 dollar plus kit, Da Beakies will get two, and I wonder what kits they'll be repackaging when their poster boys show up again.
If players were still buying models like they did 2-3 years ago, I do believe they would have raised prices. Remember, GW doesn't care about revenues, only margins. They're more than willing to trade lower overall sales for higher profits. Unless the overall sales have recently fallen too quickly for that trick to work.
DeleteIf GW is only raising prices on key models for new releases, then that means that they think only those models can sustain a higher price point. Notice Stillfrosty's list though, they're re-packaging more than just specific Eldar models at lower price points. The reductions are mild, and they didn't call those reductions out at all in the spreadsheets sent to retailers. There's one page for the increases, and the other has all the products listed, without columns for before and after.
So they're breaking their long-standing policies and only raising prices on specific high-demand models for new releases. While they're also quietly repackaging other products at a small discount. To me that says they want to see what effect those reductions have on sales for those lines. They're dipping their toe in the discount water, so to speak. I doubt it's because they want to.
It's good to see that you had the foresight to write up both "Price Increase - Why GW Sucks.txt" as well as "No Price Increase - Why GW Sucks.txt." It's important to cover all the bases.
ReplyDeleteTopping it off with this whole "vague regurgitations of the general reception of Codexes by the wider audience of other people's blogs" show in the comments was a particular delight, as well! I can't wait to hear what Warseer's Army List forum thinks of the Dark Angel book, or what Dakka's Swap Shop has to say about Soul Grinders.
And I'm glad to see that you're still missing the point of a post in your effort to insult me.
DeleteTell me though, how many of the guys who played 40K religiously a year ago at the store are still doing so? How many 40K tournaments have been held in Indy in the last year compared to 2-3 years ago? Is there maybe a reason for that? Perhaps the reasons I outlined last year, but got insulted for saying when everyone was high on hope? Reasons which now a majority of the old competitive crowd not only agree with, but now hate on GW for; far more than I do?
If BoLS sounds more and more these days like YTTH, and YTTH has gone off the rails in terms of negativity, then that really says something. As does the drastically lower number of 'how to play' posts on the blogrolls. Even the number of pure 'Hobby' posts is down.
And I do pay attention to all of these, because I care what the community is thinking.
I'm not insulting you; I'm being ridiculous.
DeleteIt's an in-depth and biting commentary on the state of the blog re:40k.
If you're going to spew pointless shit from a predetermined viewpoint (GW is evil and cannot undertake a positive action under any circumstances) then I will counter with pointless shit from an equivalent viewpoint (you're a stupidhead).
You're setting the level of discourse with these posts, I'm just adapting to it.
If you find it so pointless, then why do you read my stuff? Obviously you're unable to see past your own biases and consider what I'm actually saying in your rush to score 'points' on me. Which nobody else but you seem to care about.
DeleteGW isn't 'evil', just shortsighted and greedy. This change in pricing strategy is (mini-wise) mostly good for the players, and I believe (as I said above) that it will be better for GW in the long term.
My REAL INTEREST though, is in figuring out what's going on behind the scenes right now. Because GW (being self-evidently greedy and shortsighted) would not decide to change pricing strategies without a compelling (for them) reason. So I'm talking about it. Because it's interesting, and I want others' constructive, thoughtful, input on the matter.
Like Stillfrosty, who contributed a nice list of recently discounted items. That helps me get beyond the knee-jerk "They're just being sneaky about the price increases now." reactions that are happening on other sites like YTTH, and come up with a more nuanced opinion of what's going on. If you want vitriol, go read the comments there.
And... Going by the very healthy hit count so far, this subject is plenty interesting to our readers. Which, in case nobody told you, is the entire point of having a blog in the first place. Not to cheerlead GW, Battlefront, or anyone else. But to share insights that others are interested in and get feedback.
If you're not really interested, don't waste our time.
Eh, I jump over to YTTH on occasion, and that whole page is nothing more than internet drivel.
DeleteTo answer your (far above) question, I'm afraid I can't remember when the price decrease was... although it was fairly early in my 40k career... maybe 8-10 years ago? I'm currently asking around to see if I can get a better answer.
As to why they're trying things differently? Enough people are miffed about the price increases. I got to the point a long time ago where I couldn't possibly get a 3rd army new, and even 2nd hand would be a stretch at this rate (although if I could sell at half the new costs, I'd just about make my money back on everything I have). Potentially, GW could have been spending the past few years finding the breaking point of their sales. A risky venture, but economically a brilliant idea. Just how much can you actually charge for your cookies? What is the absolute most you can get before too many people walk away?
I hate to think that way... not because it's bad or underhanded business practice (businesses need money. End of story), but because the price point is likely higher than I personally can keep up with.
Maybe, though, they're looking into the future more than most give them credit for. Maybe they see what 3d modelling is becoming, and how easily they could potentially be replaced? Maybe not. But maybe.
Eh, YTTH has its flaws, but I still find that it has the most BS-free discussions out there, and (drama aside) Stelek is still great when he's ripping something apart in detail. I like his insights, even if I don't always agree with his conclusions.
DeleteYeah, businesses need money. But I don't think that they should be in business if they don't want to make great products. It just pisses me off when a company like GW (Or GE, Or GM, or Microsoft) is more concerned with the numbers behind the product instead of the product or service itself. They'd rather come up with creative ways to wring an extra few bucks out of a 'special' or 'ultimate' edition, shift liability to 3rd parties, or push paper profits around than put that same creative energy into (gasp!) making their base products more appealing.
Which is all that Apple did before they started wasting energy and focus on stupid lawsuits. How's that worked out for their stock price lately? Crappy? Well, maybe they'd better look at where management is focusing its attention these days. Because its not on their products.
As for GW, without a management turnover, nothing else about them is going to change voluntarily. That's not how large businesses operate.
If you get something good out of Stelek, power to you... I just have never not gotten a headache from going over there. Having opinions is fine, but when you're so set that your opinion is complete truth and everyone who says even the slightest different thing is utter fail, you're just acting like a interwebs bulldozer bully.
ReplyDeleteExample of the last thing I saw over there - laughing at GW making $100 off of each Wraithknight. Really? I understand that the plastic material cost is near negligible compared to what we pay, but how much do molds cost? How much time is spent on R&D that must be accounted for? How much staffing goes into production and planning, before they can even think of making money off of the product?
Correlation time - I'm considering writing up a cook book, since I have enough photography friends to take pretty pictures for me and E-publishing is (relatively) cheap and easy these days. If I sell the thing for $15 a pop, people could get up in arms saying how much money I make off of nothing (digital data). But how many hundreds of dollars went into testing the recipes? How many hours were spent planning, working on layout, etc, that I want to recoup costs for?
Don't get me wrong - I think the continual price raises are over the top, and things like 5 Dire Avengers for $10 each (or close) is ridiculous. But touting how GW makes $2 for every $1 spent on plastic as profit margin is every bit as bad as the worst of the fanboys spouting about how GW's practices and policies are the best thing since sliced bread.
As far as great products - I think we just disagree on this point. Granted, I still like the game. I would still encourage you to give a true fair shot and play for 6 months. Having actively played through 3 editions, I can tell you that 6th is by far the most balanced in terms of core rules. There are bound to be a couple of holdovers in a system where army rules are updated over the course of a year, but even with this by and large most things are pretty solid.
Models? Still better than most competition, I think. I've yet to see much in the way of "replacement 40k parts" that look as good as what GW makes. If you know a better source, feel free to show me, but I honestly thing GW is doing a better job of model design than a lot of others. The ones that are really good, only do human models. Which, sadly, I have no use for (however if I ever get the IG itch, that's where I'll look).
And they've always had amazing customer service in terms of replacing broken/missing parts. Finecast aside, which admittedly was a debacle, I've never had a problem getting a part or even full kit replaced at no cost to me (not even a shipping charge).
I'm not saying GW is perfect, but I'm going to defend them when people say there's no good that ever comes out of the company, too.
ps - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy?ref=live
Amazing models, great IG replacement... but will they be any cheaper? $36 for a 10-girl squad... I'm not sure what IG is at right now, but I think it's comparable.
I'm going to break up this reply into parts. :)
DeleteIf you just assume Stelek's bully-thing is bluster, and it is (because he told me so in person), then you can look past it to what he's actually saying. No, he's not a top tournament winner, but he's probably the best player out there (or at least was) that can also write about his opinions in a way that actually makes sense to others. The real top players like Tony Kopach don't really know why they do what they do, and can't communicate the 'how' or 'why' of it to others in a way that makes sense.
That Stelek chooses to piss people off on purpose for attention/exposure is (IMO) a very flawed strategy. But I'm able to look past it. Not everyone is, and I can understand that.
Truthfully, I'd guess that the design/mould/distribution cost of a WraithKnight is much higher than $10. Probably more like $25-30, depending on how many they plan to sell. Traditionally, Eldar are only something like 6% of total 40K sales. Which may only equate to 10,000 or so potential customers world-wide. The allies rules will expand the number of players interested, but it's still a pretty small customer base.
DeleteEven so, $115 is pretty high compared to the WWII, Gundam and other large model kits that you can buy now. Many of which sell to smaller customer bases than GW has. But you're correct in that GW's profits from that kit needs to help support other departments in GW, from rules design to their retail stores. In short, they have a lot of overhead to cover, and their overall profit margin as a company is in the single digits.
That's doesn't excuse their high prices on such kits, but I can at least understand the constraints they're under as a company that is trying to preserve a certain perception about itself in the minds of its shareholders. Even if I don't agree with the importance of that objective to the long-run health of the company.
As for giving 6th a shot, I've watched plenty of 6th Edition games, even some of yours. I've also talked to very die-hard local players who gave 6th their best shot, and then gave up playing 40K altogether in disgust. Or who keep 'quitting', coming back, and 'quitting' again. Attracted by the models, but repelled by the rules.
Delete6th is simply not the type of game that I want to play. We could go into the specific design aspects of that, but I would not enjoy the overall experience I'm seeing. Which is that, for casual games, you spend 45-90 minutes rolling up warlord traits, random terrain, and agreeing on this and that before setting up in fairly static gun-lines across the table from each other. Then starting a game that will often only get to turn 3 before the store closes. Because the game itself takes at least 25% longer to play out than it used to.
And you know what? That's fine for a basement game. I had fun back in 2nd Edition with 4-5 hour games while we drank beer and argued rules. I get that. But that's not the kind of game that I want to play now. My expectations are higher than they used to be, and I've played some other games that opened my eyes to ways that many of 40K's argument-generating problems could be solved easily.
Eh, I get through terrain/start-up in about 15 minutes... there's a rather extensive "this is what terrain does" list, so it's easy to say "standard ruin", "standard hill", etc. And maybe I'm just generally lax on things, but I haven't (personally) come across a whole lot of rules arguments that aren't a simple misunderstanding or somesuch (most games of this size have a lot of rules to remember, it happens).
DeleteGranted, I'm far more of the basement player type than a tourney goer, but the latter, to me, are the ones doing all the arguing, as "it super matters" because it's "really important" what that die roll is. I like winning, yeah... but it's a toy soldier game, not worth fighting about. But meh.
As far as gunlines... I think this is an unfortunate myth perpetrated by, again, largely "heavily competitive gamers". Here's the thing. Yes, shooting is very much better.
Because shooting used to suck. Hard.
Play 5th with gunline guard/Tau. What do you get? A rock CC unit in the face.
Play 6th with gunline guard/Tau. What do you get? A fairly even match.
Mostly it's competitive players complaining that their assault rocks aren't guaranteed to rock everything anymore. Mind, I'd be in favor of a d6+3" assault as the standard, with tweaking for movement types, fleet, etc instead of the completely random 2d6"... but do I hate it? No. And DE are my shooty-est army (who tend to like to hit combat just as much).
The game shifted to a far more balanced gun vs knife scenario. On the whole, these two options are both incredibly viable. But combat rocks (most of them) aren't what they used to be. So a lot of people are upset that they had to vary their armies, learn new tactics, etc. Armies with Fleet (that are meant to be nasty in assault) still are. And very reliable at it. Sure, you can roll snake-eyes twice... but you can also roll all 1's to hit with your Tau. Bad dice happen, it's a game based on random chance.
Eh, bit of a rant, but I'm glad the shooting phase got some love. It was much needed. And my gaunts and wyches will still nom/slash/destroy things in assault.
Plus now I get jet planes. Pew pew.
Like I've said before, if all you're after is a casual, relaxed game, cool. 6th is for you. Even if I think you have to work a bit too hard not to be frustrated by its limitations.
DeleteBut I like honest competition, and that's hard to square with random mechanics everywhere, gaping rules loopholes, a 3-4 hour game time, a lack of tactical depth, and the cash required to keep up with a new meta every 2-3 months. In that respect, 6th just isn't made for me. In fact, its been designed specifically NOT to interest players like me.
As for models, GW is a mixed bag. Their resin models are worse than the competition, and WAY overpriced. While most of their new plastics are top-notch, manufacturing-wise. But their design quality is dropping fast. As with rules, they're spending less time on the look of the model itself, and more time on the process that brings that model to life. Just as the best part of GW's new books is the binding, layout, and illustrations. NOT the rules they were created to communicate.
ReplyDeleteIf you're looking for replacement IG, here ya go:
http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2013/03/now-gw-has-middle-volume-plastics.html
As for tanks and walkers, there are some good alternatives in the Dust:Warfare line. There was a good alternative for a Hellhound out a year or two ago. Though I don't think I've seen a very good Chimera replacement yet.
I'll agree on GW having good customer service. I've never had a bad experience with GW replacing anything. And the switch to one-man stores has freed up the one guy left to talk like a human being instead of a scripted robot. :)
Those pseudo guardsmen are great from the waist up but they're absurdly top-heavy
Deletehttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2OjziFVeP7k/UZz76pp9XTI/AAAAAAAADKw/O3NReoWWj9I/s1600/Eisenkern+APC+Back.jpg
What's up with the ass-less trousers? :P
That is pretty funny, he needs a loincloth back there. :)
DeleteThe back of that tank looks nice through. Might be a good Chimera stand-in.
Drama time....
ReplyDeleteThis IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU THE PERSON AS SANDWYRM who is also my friend. I will also admit you are much more intelligent than I will ever be but with me you get passion, determination, and optimism.
So is it me or have you mentioned Yes The Truth Hurts in 8 out of 25 responses...? That is 32% of the time. I mean I am cool with Stelek and Andrew who is the same person. So I know both personalities and like them both for the most part. We don't agree on everything but I am not stuck up his butt either. He has a standing invitation to our annual Grand Touranment from me personally. We talk on the phone sometimes and I really like Andrew more than Stelek but come on....
Secondly in response to some of the "junk" err "information" you like to provide us. You responded to me when I asked what is fail.."it's not fail in and of it
self.." Then why would you put a tag on your post as "GW FAIL"? Is it perhaps because that is what you want?
Why is it that you have to know the why of everything? Why is it when they do something that is good for some of the community your response is, "yeah but..."
After every post that didn't agree with your assessment is an acknowledgement of the writers comment(great writing skills)and then a "but" and skeptic remark. Really?
Then when Dodger3 calls you on hearing what he feels is junk, you state "but GW is short sighted and greedy". Sandwyrm, all companies are short sided and greedy. In case you didn't know businesses are there to make money. How many times do you notice a price increase at your local fast food restaurant? You don't really because they introduce new items at higher prices, or raise by pennies at a time. Most increase their prices 3 to 6 times a year. I mean I think the guys that run that multi-million dollar business are big boys and can do fine without us speculating about everything they do all the time. But that is what some people like to do. And that is fine with me. I am not even bothered by all the hate from sects of the community hating this or that. You can never make everyone happy. I manage a million dollar business for a company and I can tell you that profit and bottom line drive almost every decision in a company. Yes customer service and quality are staples or core values but they are core values because.....they drive top line sales and bottom line profits. Is McD short sighted because they only bring back the Mcrib seasonally? Or whenever they need a boost in sales to get their quarterly numbers..? Do multi-billion dollar companies that have an extremely good month reserve profit and push it from month to month because they know they will have a bad month coming up....? OF COURSE THEY DO! I have been in meetings where I have heard controllers and seen my supervisor reserving $75,000 in profit for nearly a whole year to ensure that steady growth is reported instead of peaks and valleys in business trends which isn't as "attractive" to investors. So while I can appreciate perspective from people. I hear alot of people who have no clue on what goes on in a business. Theory is different than real life.
Spag, I'm not sure why you would say this isn't personal, and then insinuate that I'm up Stelek's butt, or that my info is "Junk err..." something else. Because that's not how you talk when you're being friendly. It's how you talk when you're being deliberately insulting and trying to score 'points'.
DeleteGo look at Foodie's comments. THAT'S how you put forth a contrary view without making it personal. I appreciate Foodie's comments, because I like to hear contrary views, and he does it well. Without calling our friendship into question as he tells me I'm wrong.
You're all worked up about the post label, but that's just a LABEL. If someone clicks on it, they get all of my GW-critical posts. From the ranty ones last year, to the more dispassionate ones I've put out since. Which give props to GW in certain things, are critical of others, and which recently have focused on figuring out why GW does the things it does. But the LABEL is not the POST Spag. Its just a way for folks to find the content.
"Why is it that you have to know the why of everything? Why is it when they do something that is good for some of the community your response is, 'yeah but...'"
Why do I have to know the 'why' behind a particular move by a company? Because that's who I am Spag. Full stop. If you can't handle that, then you can't handle me as a person. I rip systems of all kinds apart to see how they work. Then I start improving them. Because it's fun, and I'm very good at it.
That's my personality, and I don't know why you're complaining when I agreed with you that this move by GW is a good thing for us and them.
"After every post that didn't agree with your assessment is an acknowledgement of the writers comment(great writing skills)and then a "but" and skeptic remark. Really?"
You would rather that I NOT show respect for others' opinions? That I not show appreciation for what they have to say? That I just dismiss them and call them idiots instead of letting them shape my understanding of an issue as we talk here? I don't get it Spag. What's the point of this? It really just seems like you're grasping here. Even as you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of.
As for Dodger...
Instead of coming up with a thoughtful comment, he insults me in the most patronizing way possible. Which can be summed up as "Sandwyrm is a big bad meanie that hates GW. Look! He's so funny!". No insight. No new info. The comment contributed nothing to the discussion, and seemed designed to play to a peanut gallery that's no longer all that critical of me.
"Sandwyrm, all companies are short sided and greedy."
Not all. Some are greedy and far-sighted (Apple). Some just like to make good products, and avoid outsourcing because that would hurt their employees (Mag-Lite).
So when a particular company is being a douche, don't just wave it away. Expect better of them. I'm all for capitalism, free enterprise, and making lots of money. But that doesn't mean I don't also want companies to be moral, well-run, and beneficial to their customers instead of predatory.
And yes... I know that there's complexities in the way large businesses are run. That's the best parts of what you just wrote. Lets concentrate on that instead of my being a poo-poo head. It's much more interesting. :)
I remember when there were constant complainers about how slow GW put out new codex books. I haven't seen an article written by you or those people that compliment GW on said practice. Not sure why as you "care about the community" the way I know you do.
ReplyDeleteMy experience of the 40k community dying is not the case. I went to adepticon and even though I have seen drop in players at the West Side location, 40k is booming in other areas. Lafayette, Chicago, Bloomington, Martinsville, etc. Someone once told me I was a big fish in a small pond...until I went to the ocean to compete. I went to the ocean and killed some big fish. I came back wishing I lived in the ocean as the game or community of 40k is stronger their. But I still love playing here, writing here, competing here, helping new players here. 40k isn't dead and if GW does something good, do we really have to say...
"yeah but..why are they doing it..?"
I love playing 40k. And I am proud of it. I also love the dallas cowboys even though they are disfuntional. But I still support them. They make me mad and sad sometimes and I throw my hat in the garage but I pick it up again because I am a fan. And that's what fans do.
What are you a fan of?
Respectfully,
Spaguatyrine
I do appreciate the speed at which new books are being released. But I also want them to be GOOD books too. In your business, is it a good thing if your workers go too fast, and the quality of the product drops? Driving away your loyal customers?
DeleteTo do it right, GW needs to double or triple the number of designers it has. But its not doing that, so we get weak copy-paste codices that look great, but are poorly designed.
(So speed good. Definite improvement there. Quality not so good. Hope they fix that. Still worried that GW is shooting its wad too fast. Might mean trouble. Hope not.)
As for Adepticon, it draws the top couple of percent from every region. Their numbers are going to be good no matter what the rest of the playerbase is doing.
Which from where I sit in Indy, isn't so good. West side is all but dead for 40K. Both it and the North Store are getting 2-3 players per week (~20% of 5th Ed peak). South Store (according to guys there) is dead for 40K, but booming for Warmachine and Dust. Gamerz never does anything but monthly Apoc. Saltire has gone Dust. I suppose the GW shop is doing fine though.
Given that Indy has the healthiest gaming community (6 large game stores) of any city I've ever lived in, I really do think that the current drop in players means something. I'm glad that some of the outlying areas are picking up. But they weren't all that strong, player-wise, to start with.
By fan, I presume that you mean someone that loves something uncritically, and will support that thing no matter what it does.
Well, I'm a fan of my family. That's it. Everything else gets analyzed and critiqued. Actually, my family does too, but they enjoy it. :)
How do you know the books are copy and paste? You don't play the game. That's right because you are being critical of something you don't like for.... well not sure why besides you like to tear something apart and fix it. I respect you like to make things better and I do read your dialogues. But you have no basis besides what other bloggers are saying. Foodie and others communicate they like 6th edition and they feel the rules are better balanced.
DeleteThe north store got 2-3 players a week once they changed the day anyways. Yes there is drop off and I realize that. People change, life changes, and things ebb and flow. I have seen a lot of new players coming from the south side, new players showing up on the west as well. Saltire has a monthly apoc game that has driven traffic. Unfotunately my new job has limited my playing time and ability to help run events. But I can get games every weekend that I am off without really calling ahead.
I don't always like what I get from either my football team, or GW, or the government in with Blowboma. I can still enjoy the good things we have and ADAPT to the situation. I feel that is the issue. The inability to adapt and overcome the situation. When my kids don't listen and become rebelious as they get older I can be critical but have to care about their development to help make them better. If that is the way you feel towards Apple, or GW, or whoever I see you rant about then great. But if I am correct you still use your ipad right?
And how do you know that GW needs more designers? How do you know that the product they are putting out is exactly what their business plan dictates?
"How do you know the books are copy and paste? You don't play the game."
DeletePeople I trust the opinion of (Stelek, CaulynDarr, others) are saying this. They also back this up with examples and logic that make sense.
The guys that like it are guys that I know to be more casual and laid back. They like almost everything. So I keep that in mind when they praise the book. Because they're talking more about their feelings and hope for the book, than what's actually in the book.
That doesn't mean that they're wrong, because they get different things from the game than I would, and that's fine. But I have to look to their level of excitement compared to other books to gauge their reaction, AND keep in mind the falloff in that excitement over time.
So in summary: The logical types are critical of the new book. While the more casual types are less enthusiastic in their praise than usual. Taken together, that means a weak release. I've also looked at some scans of the new book, and can see tell-tail signs of a rushed development. Such as 'rules' that look more like quick notes that were never updated.
Remember Spag, I've made games for a living. I'm a multi-disciplinary designer. It's what I am, and what I do. I'm even writing my own tabletop game right now.
That means that I notice things, and care about things, that most players don't. In the same way that a movie director can't watch a film without mentally deconstructing it. Because he's just as interested in the process behind the film's creation as he is in the story or visuals.
It also means that I know how to gauge reactions to a design, and look past what people are saying to what they're also not saying.
As for the North Store...
The change of day hurt 40K attendance. But that was more than 2 years ago now, and we were pulling in 6-8 guys routinely before 6th hit. Even so, the change of day in one store would not affect the rest of the stores in the city. Except that (if 6th were really popular), those players would be going to another store to play. Well, where are they?
40k has changed but some would argue for the better. I mean we all remember 5th edition grey knights and imperial guard. Where IG could alpha strike and kill off your entire army in 2 turns. Each edition has its boons. Personally I am excited to see all of the new codex come out. It brings a little excitement to the game and keeps it from getting boring.
ReplyDelete40K reached the tipping point on affordability for me. I can't afford to keep up with the joneses.
ReplyDeleteI had enough stuff to field 2.5, maybe 3 armies. With the racheting up of model prices, it got to be too much. When GW was more or less expecting that I would go out and buy the rulebook, then start shooting out $50 codexes... I felt it was time to leave.
I didn't care about GK's anymore, and GW hasn't given me great reasons to keep liking Sisters (PDF codex was disappointing. I'd have needed to go buy more stuff and/or resign to playing with the mid-power codexes). They took a lot of what I thought was 'cool' about DH, WH, and IG, and made it vanilla. Kind of bland.
I still find it ironic that many of the people who shrieked about Inquisitorial allies rules being 'unfair', and not fluffy started touting them loudly when the doors were opened for everyone to ally.
GW is out of my price range for a 'casual' game. I'm not even going to talk about how much it would cost to maintain competitiveness and buy the good units out of the newest codexes to get the best allies options.
I find a lot of GW's work to be sloppy, careless design, and not worth my money.
I don't need to persist in a 'sunk cost fallacy'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy
http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html
When I'm not getting enough return on my investment, it's time to cut bait and leave.
There are other games out there that can fulfill the same entertainment desire much more affordably. I enjoy the settings.
I actually find that other companies have written higher quality rules, and I can afford to play their game.
sure GW got me into miniature wargaming. sure, there might be some sour grapes over spending a lot of money on a hobby only to find I'm sort of expected to go spend more all the time.
Jervis and the design team have stated they want the Warhammer experience to be an elite gaming experience.
good for them. I don't have an elite budget.
so I sold and left.
I don't have the love blinders on for GW anymore. I also don't post about them much. There are a lot of people who get too offended when they hear dissenting opinions about their ...precious.
so when a post goes up trying to look at why GW has done something, people get knee-jerk defensive, and attack for our pondering why GW might do something. We're curious about the motives.
I think GW is preparing for a sale.
I will want to talk about what that means to the 40K hobby, even if I am no longer 'in' that hobby.
I play Flames of War now. Flames of War is cool.
For what it's worth Sandwyrm, I think you're a tad out of touch/have blinders on to what 40k is actually like right now. Not meant as a dig, just an observation of someone who still actively plays/participates in a region which is thriving for 40k. It's very hard to judge the health of a game when you don't actually play it anymore, and though you mentioned "tearing things apart to make them better is just who i am!" I think in cases like this, you're just tearing things apart, with none of the "making them better" part.
ReplyDeleteI've played actively for many many years, in many different east coast regions/gaming groups, and have seen this with every edition shift - some areas thrived, some died. When 5th began a few vocal members of my group in PA basically hated it, and said the game was broken and it was terrible and switched to war machine, but continued to bad mouth the game. Slowly but surely the negativity around that just drug the local scene down until it basically died off - but as we both know, 5th edition was probably the most thriving time period for GTs, RTT's, and most other 40k gaming communities. These guys generally were the ones who couldn't or wouldn't adapt to the changes, got frustrated with the game, and let it sour them to the hobby.
6th came along, and I saw some regions do that, but I saw far more regions resurge. Around here (DC area) there was plenty of initial grumbling, but now people are very on board and enjoying 6th, and it's even brought back some old friends that had quit during 5th ed. From a GT perspective, imo the hobby scene has never been better - despite what Stelek would have you believe. I hate to say it, but either he doesn't want to, or he refuses to understand/give 6th a chance, and that site has went to the garbage can in the last year/year and a half. He posts up absolutely horrid, would never work lists as "the most broken but boring thing ever and this is why 40k is terrible now" that make no sense in 6th ed. At some point, he'll (and you'll probably) have to either hang up the hate/critic hat, or just get on board and give it a chance, not doing so will probably drive you crazy, and it does nothing but hurt the community at large.
It's a bit silly to have essentially "GW rose prices - they suck!" and "GW isn't raising prices - they suck!" and "It takes them forever to update a codex - they suck!" and "they're updating codexes too fast - they suck!". As far as in game balance goes, it's really never been better. Yes, there are a few broken units, but by and large every new book has been legitimate and worth playing, and has included some interesting/fun new units - not copy and pastes.
Just my .02 for what it's worth!
To quote an old song, “Love is in the air.” :-)
ReplyDeleteI’m somewhat new to the hobby. Maybe a year and a half now. While it’s true that the prices do frustrate me (and that’s why I just scratch build a lot of my toys), the game is fantastic.
Do I wish 40K had as big a following as MTG? Sure. Thankfully, however, there is enough interest at large to keep me on my toes. And for my own gaming needs (as myopic as it might be), it is proving sufficiently interesting.
Tippcon is coming up, SandWyrm. How about dusting off the miniatures and tossing some dice?
Thanks for the invite, but I'm already going to be vacationing that week.
DeleteWe can toss dice any other time you like, but since I don't have an army built for 40K anymore, I'll probably try and talk you into trying out my game instead. :)
Here's a different view of Eldar from another self-described competitive player:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/06/40k-thar-be-eldars-about-battle-report.html
I endorse this message
You mean the review that says that since there are 3 good things in the codex we have to ignore the 72 bad things or else we're a bunch of cry babies? There's just as much danger in being always positive as being always negative.
DeleteI'd have been stunned if Reese had written ANYTHING BUT a review drooling over how awesomesauce something GW put out was. He beams over pretty much anything they do with the elation and adulation of a young parent at the first time little Timmy takes a dump near a toilet.
Deleteyes, it might be a step in the right direction, but there's still a turd on the floor.
yes, I cheered when both of my girls finally put the poop in the potty.
Like CaulynDarr astutely pointed out, There's a fine line to objectivity.
I'm fairly stoked about Eldar. I haven't held the book, but can tell you most of the rules at this point... and I care enough thanks to allies that I'm thinking pretty hard about what I can do with them.
DeleteBladestorm is an amazing rule for a basic gun. Dire Avengers were a pretty good troop for the cost, and now for a point more you get Battle Focus (which both alleviates the gun range, and allows for some serious tactical options) and, more or less, Rending on your basic gun (sans extra vehicle killing). Even Guardians can put out some serious hurt at close range due to the BS increase. Sure, they're more expensive, but I'd say they're worth the points now (on par with a DE Warrior moreso than they've ever been).
No more runes make me sad, but Eldar at least get a 5+ Deny in a lot of places (thanks to Warlocks) so they still have a moderate defense. Same with Dragons costing more... the cheapest, best toys are likely to go. It happens.
I'm torn between the Crimson Hunter (all out offense) and the Nightwing (good offense, amazing jink capability) for my allied flyer. Of course, the Nightwing is only if my opponent will allow 40k legal forgeworld... but if you read over all of those, they're not the crazy stuff you find in Apoc-only units.
And now everyone can guide twice at a decent range, more or less. Dear friendly farseer on a jetbike, please make my dark lances extra kill everything, even flyers.
Kthxbai
Srsly though... yes, it's still a finesse army, and you have to work it in conjunction with common sense and some good moves. But a whole lot of terrible units became good, without a lot of great units getting uber-nerfed. I'm eager to play it, play against it, and just see how it goes.
Yeah, never cite a BoLS review. They're always deliberately positive. Because that puts more eyes on ads.
Delete@Foodie
DeleteYou can tell me I'm wrong in 6 months if the Eldar hold up in play.
But right now, all of my past 40K experience tells me that "Finesse" = suck. Else Spag would be beating face with his Dark Eldar instead of leaving them on the shelf.
Why? Because 40K isn't a deep enough game, tactically, to support that kind of thing. Therefore all 40K armies need to be very straightforward on the table in how they play.
I would be playing dark eldar if their cover saves were better than 5+ and I could ally more than eldar. I can still play them competitively but not at the top levels I compete in. And eldar will be fine. They are looking stronger by the day. It takes a good 3 months to really see.
DeleteStraightforward like a guard gunline....
I've said it before, I'll say it again... there's a difference between "easy" and "good". They can be the same, and sometimes are (40k-wise), but it can also be quite the opposite.
DeleteGranted, I don't know how long you spent with DE Spag, to get the full feel of the army and get past the learning curve (especially coming from highly durable armies). I have no doubt that you could, potentially, take them to "top tier" competitions and do well, because you're a great player.
Armies like Eldar/Dark Eldar take time to learn properly. You're going to lose at first, and usually lose hard. The gutwrench reaction is not "what can I do better next time?", but rather "[Insert army] sucks, I'm buying Space Puppies". Because Space Wolves (and a few key others, we all know what they are) are far easier to play well. I'm not saying there aren't those who can just play them better or have more skill in general, but they're easier to pick up and do well with.
This does not mean that those hard-to-learn armies don't have the same potential. But most competitive players (most) are the types who want the new hotness, who see the blank stats on paper and judge their army choice by that alone. Most competitive players are not willing to put in the time/effort to properly learn an army that takes more time or "finesse" to use. They want the quick and easy route, and there are plenty available.
I've always thought of the armies/codices as being a multiplier for the player.
DeleteSo if the player is a 0.8, and the army is a 0.5, you get a 0.4 in performance.
Whereas a 0.5 player with a 1.0 army (best possible) gets a 0.5 in performance. Beating the better player who's using the worse army.
All armies take time to learn the intricacies of. Some just take longer than others. Which has little to do with their overall power potential (suckiness). An army can take a long time to learn to use well, and still suck.
I could see that a bit, but I don't think the gradient would be nearly that much. There are going to be some matchups that are harder, perhaps, and this is largely due to the idea that GW rolls out things over the course of a year or so rather than all at once.
DeleteThundercav were the big nasty when they first hit. A static toughness boost? Super-hard stats and a 3++ on one guy for 20 points gives the whole unit an inv?? Crazy!!!
But now the T boost is universal. That single-shield trick doesn't work. I wouldn't think of them as a bad unit (cavalry even got a nice movement boost) but they don't shine like they used to.
Necron flyer spam is another thing out there right now that a lot of armies have to learn to deal with. Best thing I've heard? Old-codex Saim Hain Eldar that just outmaneuvered them all game. Made me laugh pretty hard. Flyer fire arcs and such are extremely limited, though, and I don't think they're enforced very well (here, at least, not sure how tournaments stick them). Sometimes that's your best defense, though. Get close and make them fly off the table for lack of a better option. That's a lot of points to pay for something that shoots for three turns.
But even this will even out as AA units/options become more widespread. My DE have a nice cackle-y smile since a basic farseer can twin-link two Ravagers, and (maybe) Doom one of the enemy flyers. Sure I should only hit once, but it's with a good gun. Plus I'm building myself a quad-gun. And Eldar air support is still pretty wicked.
And all of the above probably sounds more like I'm agreeing with you... I guess what I'm trying to say is that, unfortunately, there are a couple of builds which are "cheesy/broken", and take advantage of the fact that not everyone has "the AA update" (here's lookin' at you, Nids). Do I like it? No, but I can accept that GW doesn't turn around FAQ's or updates in a matter of days, it takes a couple of months.
Outside of a list where my only option is "hope for a 6", though, I don't think I'm suffering for not playing Imperial lists. And I'd like to at least try my hand vs a rock hard Necron list, to see if I can fare against it at all.
And if nothing else, I know the first time we played (or at least the first time we did a batrep for the site) I tied your super-melta mounted IG with my peasley DE list... so I guess that means I'm a top notch player ;)
I'd say the army multiplier isn't a fixed value. Some armies and especially certain builds of armies are very by-the-numbers and journeyman to play. They're solid but don't have much flexibility. Other armies are really flexible and have a much greater depth of tactics. They'll punish an average player and make them look bad. On the other hand, with a good player they'll let them really shine and look awesome.
Delete@ Spag, you still have a lot of options for a 4+ save. It's true that area terrain and intervening models now give a 5+ but as DE I hardly ever went into area terrain to start with. Any scenery that blocks line of sight gives a 4+ cover save. All the battlefield debris, ruins and so on give you that 4+ save like normal.
Add onto that the 50% chance of night fighting and you've got a chance of 3+ and even 2+ cover saves on turn one without too many problems.
DE seem really strong in this edition although the best way to stay alive is still to stay out of line of sight (or range by leveraging night shields)
'Tau and DA are ally-books, not something that you can take as a primary and do real well with.' Wait, what? My friend Josh would disagree with you...he's won three of the last 4 tourneys we've attended all over michigan with varied players using a pure Tau list. He was a good player before, now he's a nightmare. (Saturday's Grand Rapids 20-man tourney ended with him vs another Tau player at table 1). The point being, in the hands of someone who understand's Tau's layered strenths and synergy, they are an army you can EASILY do well with . A lot of other Tau players have looked at his list and say a lot of his chocies are something they'd never take. But surprising a foe with unusual choices only goes so far...He usually tables them by turn 5.
ReplyDeleteFirst time poster. Been modeling for 40+ years. 40K for +25 years. Owned several businesses. I've done pre press and post production work. Invested in a retail complex next to a military base. I own 100 pounds of plastic bits. I can definitely afford this hobby.
ReplyDeleteHowever I'm starting to believe the game is dying. Greed, plus not investing into the future by adapting to today's social and economic forms is what is causing the decline in it's customer base (IMHO). You have to continually cultivate your customer base in a positive approach. Games Workshop refuses to do this.
I been reading Sandwyrm's articles for years and generally agree with his assessment in his writings. I will continue read the back 40K (as well as other respectable/important) sites and continue to assess the health of the miniature hobby as a whole.