Infiltrating ICs. (please read though, and give your comments, I'm looking for all insight)
Basically, people want to attach an IC who has infiltrate to a unit, which would then confer infiltrate to the unit, and allow them to infiltrate. The argument comes up that under joining a squad with an IC, it says there are only two ways, deploying within coherency, and in reserves. Unfortunetly neither of these covers infiltrating.
Infiltrating is not reserves, but the unit doesn't gain the benefit until they are deployed, and thus can't use infiltrate because it is a type of deployment.
And here is where it becomes gray. If anyone tells you it is simple RAW, then they are probably wrong.
1. Under dedicated transport rules, it refers to a unit joining the squad before deploying. This actually allows a unit with an infiltrating charcter to infiltrate per RAW, as long as they are in their dedicated transport. But this rule does two things. It refers to joining a unit before deployment, and also breaks he above rule that there are only two ways to join an IC.
2. Shrikes entry in the FAQ (it's an amendment). What it says with slight paraphrasing "shrike and any model in a unit chosen from codex space marines that he has joined before deployment benefit from infiltrate".
No where does he have a rule that allows him to join a unit before deployment, though most people keep on saying he does. You cannot nit pick one rule, and then breeze over another part. His ruling simply says that the unit he joins gains infiltrate. Why is this important? Because it is a 5th ed ruling that was never changed and assumed the 5th ed FAQ that ICs joined before deployment.
So now we have a rule that states the limits on joining ICs to a unit, and then we have other rules that break the first rule, and references to joining before deployment. So while I'd be fine with either ruling at a tournament, I don't believe there is a simple absolute ruling yet. Though if I were to bet, I'd say to watch out, as joining before deployment used to be the norm.
Shooting in Overwatch. (shooting multiple weapons)
This first came up when people noticed that multi-trackers now said they function in the shooting phase. Then people were like, at least the riptide is an MC and can still overwatch with both weapons. Oh wait, the rules for MCs also changed this edition to shooting phase, and no one noticed. Well that is a huge limitation on overwatch then.
Well why do we have those rules? Because you can only shoot one weapon normally duh. Lets check.... Under the weapon section in the rule book. "He must choose which one to shoot- He cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase." Emphasis mine. Wait what! O.O the limit to shooting only one weapon only applies to the shooting phase as well?
Flip back to overwatch rules. "-but let fly every weapon at their command." If this edition is all about narrative, then a marine firing his bolter and a bolt pistol at a charging enemy seems very dynamic and theatrical to me.
So I ask how TOs are going to handle these? I've talked to a few, and most seem to be accepting of the Infiltrating squad, and When I point out rules about overwatch, they say let them shoot two weapons, as overwatch is supposed to follow the rules of shooting anyway.
So how do you rank in? How does the logic of your argument work? I'm interested in as many perspectives. I suggest we send these to Gamefaqs@gwplc.com and they may hopefully address these issues.
I am not sure what the concern here is on infiltrate. On page 38 of the rulthe rulebook it says IC's without the Infiltrate rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.
ReplyDeleteThis gives a clear guideline in reference to infiltrators. The outflank would go along with your question as it says nothing about an IC, but I know Nova and The Indy Open rule that an IC can join an outflanking unit if the IC has outflank and if it has infiltrate.
On the shooting you can fire all weapons that are allowed. Nova and The Open also rule this way. If you are allowed to fire 2 because you are a MC then you can. If you are a SW GH you can only fire 1 as you are restricted to firing 1 weapon.
Good Question.
He's talking about the opposite Infiltrate situation, which was quirky at best and now suddenly a big deal because of Illic--where a character with Infiltrate joins a squad without it.
DeleteInfiltrate is an "at least one model" ability, so if the ICs can join prior to the act of Infiltrating, then an IC with Infiltrate can bring a whole squad without Infiltrate along with him.
In my view, figurative language (e.g "-but let fly every weapon at their command.") is not nearly a broad enough locus through which to drive your truck of "can fire all weapons, regardless of what they'd be allowed to do in the shooting phase) through.
ReplyDeleteI think there is a RAW argument to ignoring figurative predicates that aren't really written as rules.
Right. I'm not really saying that is what allows me to, just that it supports my claim. The fact that the limit on shooting only one weapon is for the shooting phase I think says enough. If you want to apply this rule to overwatch, then I say MCs and tau can shoot two weapons in overwatch. You can't pick and chose which rules from shooting phase you carry over to overwatch.
DeleteSure, but using a "figurative predicate" to support your claim isn't really any different than using RAI to support the same claim, and in either case you're simply making up rules. Admittedly yes, this is necessary to have a coherent game because GW cannot write them properly the first time, but nonetheless rules are being created.
DeleteYou use MCs and Tau as your illustrative examples, and even a space marine with bolter and pistol, but picture a squad of long fangs shooting both bolt pistol and missile launcher. How "theatrical" is it to have those same marines now shooting rockets into the charging foe, dropping their weapons, slipping off their backpacks and then taking pot shots as the enemy casually advances to allow them time to do all this?
To quote "1. Under dedicated transport rules, it refers to a unit joining the squad before deploying. This actually allows a unit with an infiltrating charcter to infiltrate per RAW, as long as they are in their dedicated transport. But this rule does two things. It refers to joining a unit before deployment, and also breaks he above rule that there are only two ways to join an IC"
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I agree with you on the rules breaking part. Granted I don't have the book right infront of me, but doesn't the wording just refer to the unit having infiltrate and joining the dedicated transport before deployment, not actually being joined by a seperate unit then having the unit join the transport? If it's just talking about the unit having the special rule and then just joining the dedicated transport, then it's not breaking any rules, as the dedicated transports were designed to be joined before deployment. The other side of that is that I don't believe it states an IC can join the unit prior to deployment. Again, I could be wrong, but every time I've played my GK with an IC, I start them outside the transport, then embark, then move. I don't join them before because I haven't seen anything where we could prior to deployment.
Sorry, maybe I should have just quoted the rule I was referring to.
Delete"The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with ( plus any IC that have joined it)."
This directly refers to an IC joining a unit, before they are deployed (in their transport).
This breaks the rule that there are only two ways to join an IC to a unit, as this is neither of those.
Ah, gotcha! I didn't have the book infront of me for that one. Perhaps it's listed just for simplicity for ICs that have rules to join units prior to deployment. Like Necron Royal Courts. If they are actually ICs...maybe I should just stop commenting until I have the books in front of me...
DeleteOkay, I think I figured it out. An IC with Infiltrate can only join either by being deployed on the field in coherency, but that defeats the deployment of Infiltration. The only other way under the current rules that I can see is to join a unit in Reserves, then come in using Outflank, which is conferred through Infiltrate.
DeleteSo in essence, per the rules, you can't have an IC join a unit then deploy as per Infiltrate. It has to be Outflank, or you have to have a Codex rule stating they can join a unit prior to deployment. The Necrons Royal Court is the only one I've seen thus far.
And that's what most people read and where they stop. That's why I brought the two points above to attention. The dedicated transport rule says an IC can join before deployment.
DeleteAnd I did read through both of those. I don't have Shrike's codex (Tau right?), so I can't really reference that, but in the main book, the entry under dedicated transports can be tricky. It is worded to show there are IC that can be attached to a unit prior to deployment, but it doesn't actually say you can do that under that rule.
DeleteI didn't stop where most people do with this argument, and I'm still going over every inch of every codex I have to see if there's a) an IC with Infiltrate AND a special rule that changes when they can deploy, and b) anything in any FAQ that removes a way to attach an IC to a unit side from the two listed in the book.
While I'm looking though, I can't help but think that this is one of those rules you clarify with an opponent prior to starting a game. For the most part, I'd probably let you attach an IC to a unit then infiltrate, but only if it's a minor thing. I might force it to dice rolls for resolution if you were being a total jerk and trying to infiltrate a Land Raider full of termies.
The other thing that comes to mind is, how many IC are there that have infiltrate? I've never played one, or even played against one. I'd be curious to see.
Ah, nevermind, Shrike is in SM! Ha, that's what I get for not paying attention :P
DeleteSo now that I can actually read it, I can see where some confusion might come in, but only from one listing in one codex (thus far). Does that mean that the rule in the main book is wrong, or that the codex is written badly. Given that I've only found one example of it listing an IC that confers infiltrate, I'd have to say that the codex is at fault so far, not the main book.
A character with Infiltrate will allow a full unit to Outflank (as they're now joined in reserves, and coming on via the characters special rule that passes to the unit). As it's written, that seems to be what can happen.
ReplyDeleteAs for overwatch, as it basically follows the rules for shooting (albeit snap firing) if you can fire multiple weapons, you can fire multiple weapons. Huzzah MC's.