Tuesday, September 13, 2011

Making A Point I'm Sure Will Be Lost...

by SandWyrm

I posted this comment to BoLS in reply to the usual "40K is not designed for competitive play!" nonsense that Cowman_Returns and Striker8 were spewing. I used a bad word, so it triggered a moderation. I dunno if it will get approved or not, but I thought that you guys would enjoy it.

Once upon a time, there were 3 car enthusiasts. 2 of them decided one day to try and tweak their old Chevy so they could race a bit faster with their other friends.

"I think we should add more ventilation." said the first, looking under the hood. "It runs too hot."

"Naw, I think we need to re-program the timing first." said the second, pointing to some wires that led from a black box. "That might fix it right there."

"It won't work you idiots!" said the third. "That car wasn't designed for racing! Just drive it around casually like it was meant to be used. You know, to the store and back. All you 2 guys ever do is argue about this crap. It's ruining the driving for me! Driving should be casual!"

"Why are you hanging out with us?" Said the first. "All you ever do is bitch and complain."

"Yeah" Said the second. "What's your problem? We're just trying to have some fun! It's not like we're messing with YOUR car or anything."

"I'm just trying to point out the TRUTH!" Said the third. "That car just isn't designed for racing. You guys should just paint it up nice and cruise Main Street like I do! If you did you'd understand how STUPID racing is. Cruising is relaxing and cool and everyone should do it!"

"But that's boring" Said the first. "I like tweaking. I get to learn how engines work. I also get to see if I can get more power out of my car than other guys do."

"Yeah!" Said the second. "I like the competition. The challenge. I know it's not your thing, but that's no reason to talk crap about how WE like to have fun."

"You're not listening to me!" Argued the Third. "Racing is dumb! Trying to race with that car is pointless. There are real race cars you can buy! Why are you tweaking this old Chevy? It looks like crap anyhow. Can't you at least paint over the bondo?"

"I don't care how it looks." Replied the first.

"Yeah, we'll paint it up if we go to a big race or something. But it's not that important to us. If you don't like it, don't drive with us. We'll understand."


(And then the third guy wondered why the first and second guy got mad at him for being an asshole.)


  1. If your point is that Nascar is dumb, I read you loud and clear.

  2. While warhammer39999 wins the internet for the day,your point is brilliant.

  3. But remember that my car only lets me turn right regardless of what I do. I am in real trouble on those street courses (god forbid a counter clockwise course) unless I buy a new car. Should I have to buy a new car to have a sunday of fun.

  4. Honestly I think the car they are working on must be a muscle car if it's to be compared to 40K. Here's why the car isn't really designed to be a race car and it's really not meant to be cruiser either. It's more like what the hell is it's role because you could do either of these things with it but its not designed for either as a primary role and they make components for these cars to facilitate the owners interests. 40K is the same deal. It's not really a competitive game but its core books don't really make for a casual game either anymore. Now with all the supplements out there such as Apoc, Planet Strike and Imperial Armour you can make it as fluffy and casual as you like. At the same time the rules are gearing more and more for streamlined play which makes it easily playable as a competitive game. Either way though it's not designed for either role it just happens to be able to fill both roles but from either perspective it will fall short because of this. It will never be as competition oriented like others and it will never be as casual as some others. So both sides are wrong in their assumptions about the game just as they are both right in their assumptions about the game. For me this is what I like about it I can paly the same game and have a good time at a tournament or at home in a casual game.

  5. And NateNateNateNateNateNateNateNateNateNate

    Yes, sandwyrm, that is extremely accurate.
    Though warhammer39999 does win.

  6. I think the point would be clearer if you did not call one side "nonsense" and an a-hole.

  7. Some people can't stay out of other people's business. They just believe it's their mission in life to make sure other folks live the same way they do, because their lifestyle obviously so much better than anyone else.

    Very nice commentary. I'm definitely more of a for fun gamer, but I like to play pretty tough lists.

    Rob, awesome response. No one likes NASCAR.

  8. I get it, too bad it will be lost on the majority of people in this county who are #3's(both in 40k and cars)IMHO.

    Vast majority of Americans don't "drive". Their cars are just means of transportation from points A and B.

    Just because you don't like my "junk" thats three different colors, everything doesn't always work together but occasionally suprises you, don't give you the right to try and remove the smile on my face that I get from it.

    Wait crap, am I talking about my cars or my armies? eh, both I guess.

  9. Let's use another analogy.

    Imagine that we're having a discussion amongst 20 or so friends/acquaintances in a public place. Such as a parking lot. We're all discussing something we enjoy. Like Sci-Fi movies.

    Then some fellow comes in and starts yelling at us that Sci-Fi is stupid and that we should watch community theater or something. We've heard it before, he does this every 3 days or so like some demented street preacher. But when asked to leave or contribute to the conversation he refuses and keeps calling us idiots instead.

    We didn't invite him over, and he won't leave when asked. What should we call him? I think "asshole" fits. If he wasn't an asshole, he would just walk by and make fun of us to his friends later. Just like any normal, well-adjusted person.

  10. Funny how you can use the same joke backwards.

    I'm sure there are blowhards about "tournaments are bad, competitive is baaad"... but in my experience, and note this is *only my experience*, not the necessary overall truth, the majority A-hole "listen to my version" players are those who are hard-on'd to tournaments.

    I'd link to the post where you were surprised not everyone wanted the game dumbed down to 1-hour play for tournament ease, but that'd be overkill ;).

    I figure, do what you like. If you like casual, play casual. If you like tournaments, play tournaments. There are too many ways to play this game for one to be "right".

    Just don't be a d-bag about it if someone disagrees on their preferred method. Problem solved.

  11. Of course, some part of the third guy's attitude may come from going online and seeing a bunch of people who have similar opinions to his friends sneering at him, calling him a 'fluff bunny', a 'baby seal', or similar.

    I don't disagree with your point, just saying.

  12. @Foodie

    Do you mean this post?


    Because the only surprise I mentioned was that I expected a larger majority of players to say they wanted to keep the complexity about the same as now. Said another way: More people wanted a change (less or more) than I thought there would be. Maybe your opinions/feelings have colored your perceptions a bit? Because you seem to think I'm more rabid than I am.

    I don't doubt that there are competitive douchbags out there that wander into casual forums and throw insults around. But since I don't do that, I only see the casual-or-else guys that wander into competitive forums and start preaching the one true way.

    Like Striker8:

    "I'm contributing far more than you are since I'm pointing out something you and quite a few others miss. Warhammer 40k is not set up as a tournament game system and that has beeb said by GW themselves!!! This whole post revolves around people like you trying to figure out how pound the 40 square peg into the round hole via using points to compensate for people slow playing in a tournament the game wasn't designed for.

    Typing in caps isn;t going to cow me, niether is your poor attempt at insults. If WAAC is insulting to you then you have problems. Or in the words of Steve Martins father in The Jerk, "If the $#!& fits wear it!"

    I do like how you claimed some knowedge of true competitive play. Talk about full of yourself there son even claiming there is such a thing in such a game as 40k. You want competition try another hobby, maybe something that takes more skill than breaking a book!"


    "You NEED a game to be competitive so you have something in your life and that's the final answer. All this talk about how you like competition, this is the only competitive thing you can do with any chance of "WIN" and you need that don;t you? You and you WAAC cronies are a blight on the wargaming hobby as a whole. "

    It's bad behavior whoever's doing it.

  13. Seems like you found the Stelek of casual play there, SandWyrm

  14. Kudos for BoLS. They put up my comment, albeit with the naughty word redacted. :)

  15. There's always two sides, right? Consider the same story, but change the cars to lawnmowers. Now, imagine the 2 'enthusiasts' are yelling at the 3rd guy because he doesn't want to hotrod his lawnmower, like them. The lawnmowers weren't 'made for racing', of course. That doesnt mean someone couldn't use them for that, but I'd hardly consider someone an idiot for NOT doing it also. I feel like that 'non-lawnmower racer' when I talk to someone who adamantly argues that only certain gaming or tournament types are 'right' or 'fair'. (As example - win/loss versus battle point missions, soft scoring vs no soft scoring, etc). What's right for one person, is probably wrong for someone else - i think there's plenty of room in the hobby for all of it.

  16. The issue isn't that one side is right and the other wrong. It's that you don't go into another group and start insulting them for what they find fun. It's rude.

    I don't enjoy narrative campaigns or leagues. I'm also not much interested in playing Apocalypse games. But I can see that some people enjoy those immensely, and I'm OK with that. Cool. Knock yourself out! Vive La Difference! Take some pics and I'll look at them for a few minutes appreciatively.

    But don't come over to my side of the hobby and start telling me I'm doing it wrong. Or that I'm some sort of moral deviant for liking what *I* like. Because then you're acting like a snotty 12 year old instead of an adult.

  17. @ Sandwyrm

    Misstype/remembrance on my part. Pre-post to the actual poll was you talking about wanting 1.5 hour games for tournaments.

    Note I'm not calling you one of the tournament blow-hards - you're definitely not. But you have said you want the game to change for the sake of tournaments, so we know which side of the fence you're on.

    I'll say again, complaining about people who tell you (general you) you're wrong, go for it. They're stupid. It's a game, for one. Way too many ways to have fun to say one's the best.

  18. Ah I see the problem with the car, it's not painted red. Painting the bondo red would make it go fasta.

  19. @Foodie

    You're right in that I want the game to be streamlined a bit in order to make it play faster. The largest majority in that poll wanted about the same thing I do. Very few wanted it down to an hour or less. Though having played Kings of War I am sympathetic to that.

    But that doesn't mean the game has to be dumbed down. To me, the game already plays dumb. I simply want to roll fewer dice for the same general outcomes. While actually increasing the detail level in certain areas that need it. Such as vehicles and grenades.

  20. Ha! I enjoyed this one - I'm glad but not surprised it got through moderation.

    I'm sure it was the word 'competitive' that tripped it...

  21. Good point, just remember that unlike Nascar this goes both ways. If the event is supposed to be fluff and fun and you show up with a beat face list you are the #3 driver now. I've seen way to many "Fun" events ruined by a guy taking things to seriously and looking for every loop hole in the rules.

  22. @HuronBH

    I think the best analogy for that would be a guy that shows up to cruise main street in loud, souped-up bondo-mobile that burns rubber at every stoplight. :)


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