After reading the missions instead of playing my Space Wolves I have to take the grey knights. How can you win and compete with a King of the Hill mission with only 6 scoring units?
So I am taking my grey knights with up to 9 scoring units. What are your thoughts on this list? I normally like 2 Storm Ravens but need the extra troops. I have 40 -60 points I am toying with and thinking about putting Thawn in....
Librarian-Shrouding, Might of Titan, Warp Rift, Sanctuary
Crowe
Techmarine-Rad Grenades, (maybe psychotrokes), 2 servo skulls
10-strike squad with justicar halberd and extra halberd, Rhino-psybolt ammo (For Crowe)
10-terminators-2 psycannons, 2 hammers, 3 swords, 4 halberds (Maybe psybolt ammo and/or Thawn)
10-Purifiers-2 hammers, 2 psycannons, 2 incinerators, 4 halberds, Rhino
5-Purifiers-2 psycannons, 3 halberds, Rhino
5-Purifiers-2 psycannons, 3 halberds, Rhino
5-Purifiers-1 hammer, 4 halberds, Razorback-psybolt ammo
Storm Raven-TL MM, TL AC
Psyfelman Dread
Multi Melta/CCW
What do you think?
Curious? Do you like Crowe or is he there just for the Purifiers?
ReplyDeleteMeh.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a big fan of single Storm Ravens. With little to no other mech they are an obvious target for all of your opponents anti-armor shots.
ReplyDeleteI think Thawn could really be money from what I can remember of the semi's missions.
What is the 'Multi Melta/CCW at the bottom of the list? Is that on the Psyfleman, (if so it's not a psyfleman) or is that a different dread?
Overall though, I am a bigger fan of this than the Coteaz/Henchmen/Psyfleman dread lists I see all over the internet these days.
Much meh. All over the place bloke.
ReplyDeleteForget Crowe. If your running hybrid, normal
GKSS are a better and cheaper option- for 25 more points you can have a grand master, with grand strategy... And now you can drop your tech marine and take the Nades on the GM instead.
Now you can pack in some GKSS and some GKT- and have resilient scoring units. GKT with halberds > purifiers. Also relentless cannons are pretty hectic.
Forget the raven- not worthwhile unless you REALLY love the model. Get a second psyflemen instead, and you might find you now have points for a couple of mm ven dreads.
Unless there's a fluffbunny reason, that list is terrible- Crowe is never a good option.
I'll write you what id do for 2500 when I get home from work- no battlescribe on this phone :/
ReplyDelete@Eric,
ReplyDeleteI have played against the coteaz list and beat it regularly with space wolves. A la Nova. Yes I have 2 dreads. I psyfelman and 1 in the Raven if needed.
@Dk,
What would you do better?
@Sneaky Dan,
Although I normally dont run crowe, he is not as bad as you think. His purifiers as troops are fearless, and could be the perfect thing needed for the semi-finals of ardz boys. The second round requires the most scoring troops withing 6" of the middle and the 3rd mission is random, killpoints, terrain as objectives, table quarters. Having to kill purifiers to the last man is tougher than it seems. I have also played agianst the vendreds and they are meh. No harm intened, but why do you think it is terrible?(I heard the same thing at Nova........LOL) What would you do differently?
To all,
The raven is great if I have 1st turn, if not, going in reserve is a great option. The internet is not always right when it comes to you have to have 2 or 3 of something for it to be effective.
I think you should drop crowe, you're really only taking him for 5 purifiers. It would be much better to take a master and have the flexibility to make the scoring anyways.
ReplyDeleteI also say TL lascannons on the Raven, the long range support wouldn't hurt, but I see where you're coming from with the AC.
And I think thrawn would really be a good choice.
Forget all the meh comments... they are probably coming from folks that win <50% of the time.
ReplyDeleteThawn should definately go in however you have to do it just make it happen.
TROOPS = winning semis. Crowe to make purifiers troops makes perfect sense.
Personally I hate the single psydread. I think you could use some more reliable AT up close. Could you get a unit of henchmen with >1 melta? If so then I think you should consider it.
Good Luck!
OK. My Meh Explained!
ReplyDeleteI think this list tries to do too much. YES, Troops will be King, and varying your troop types could be important. BUT, This list lacks an image. It seems scattered. At 2500 all you vehicals should be down turn one (even with shrouding), then you become SLOW.
King'o the hill is no good if you get there one piece at a time, while your opponent is zipping around engaging you on his terms.
Honestly man I would rather see you take a GM and 2x 10 man Purifiers you can CS if needed. Rolling a 3+ is the one risk you have for scoring units if you roll a 1-2 you lose a potential 2 scoring units and you lose a single rhino but I think you can make do. In place of the last purifier squad run another strike squad. With the GM you also get Psychic Communion and that is an awesome power with strike squads even better with or if you don't want scoring purifiers you can have them outflank and hit the enemy on his flank. As far as Thawn goes why not get him in there. This is pretty much the same list you have but a slightly different approach. Also with the GM you could drop the Tech and save those points for more punch like that second strike squad being a 10 man putting you +/- a scoring unit from this list based on your strategy roll. In the end man you know what your plan is but I do like the list it's something different and you can tell its one of your lists. That's a good thing because it was built with you in mind not everyone else. Just think about it though. Good Luck.
ReplyDelete@the gravemind, did you really look at the list? 1 10 man unit of purifiers, and 3 5 man units of purifiers. That is 25 fearless troop models.
ReplyDelete@scottydon't. you can only take henchmen if you take an inquisitor and well I have 2 hq's already. Internet people are funny.
@DK, the thing is I only have a few hundred points in transports anyways. I shoot everything at 24" away. King of the hill is 6" away from my deployment zone. I don't care if you pop my rhino's. I just walk to the middle and dare anyone to get close with my initiative 6 force weapons. I understand the point you are trying to make, but I don't have to move very much to blow up anything that can zip bye. Thank you for your comments though. And my lists always try and do to much. The thing is, list has a little of everything so it is flexible.
@Strung muppet, while the 1d3 roll is ok, a librarian is much better than a grandmaster, and guaranteed, fearless, 2xpsycannon troops, are twice as better as strike squads. Thanks for the feedback.
Like I said I like the list but I want to clarify what I was suggesting.
ReplyDeleteDrop Crowe for a GM and keep Lib it would be crazy to drop that guy. Then you can drop the Techmarine you won't need his grenades and he really doesn't do much else for you. With that change you combine 2 of your 5 man purifiers into a 10 man squad you don't need the knight of the flame so why not you can CS if needed anyway. So now you will lose a Rhino but I think with where this is going you will be ok. You also now run the risk at this point of losing 2 scoring units from this list "worse case". Now the last 5 man Purifier squad plus the points saved by dropping Techy take another 10 man strike squad just like the other squad. Now worse case you have one less scoring unit than your current list but on a 3+ for your strategy you will have 1 more than you do now. You are only losing 5 Purifiers but gaining a 10 man strike squad and still have enough transports to get the Purifiers moving. With psychic communion you can more reliably get you strike squads in if you choose to DS. With Psybolt ammo and a pycannon per CS they are great light transport killers and with 24" range you don't have to be risky with placement. It's very similar to your current list but I feel like it takes care of some rough edges and adds a bit more flexability and options which could keep the other guy guessing what's next. With all that like I said I like your list just wanted to clarify what I was saying. Also you and I always say we build lists for us not others so run with what you feel is right as it will fit you best.
Cause everything purifiers do, GKT do better. The only difference is one can mech up.
ReplyDeleteSpags- it's not the Internet, it's just my playtesting. I find the GM is better bang for buck, and being able to scout your psycannons makes a big difference on a 6x4 table. ( assuming competent opponents of all shapes)
I dislike fearless, as a marine player. Having your dudes run away, only to move back the next turn is priceless. I'm from Oz, so I only have second hand ard boys experience, but I don't think I'm far off the mark. I'm not asking to spam-su , that gets boring fast. I just think that with quality generalist
Infantry like GKSS and the GKT, why go for force org changes?
Thanks Dan and Strung. Something to think about... ;)
ReplyDeleteIt amuses me to hear people complain about your wolf list being unfocused. Then you go on to win RenMan at Nova with the same "pile of models". Now I read the same complaints leveled against your GK list. I am starting to wonder how much you will have to win before people cut you some slack.
ReplyDeleteFor my 2 cents add Thrawn, he is money is at least two of the three missions.
I chuckle quite a bit but still take into consideration their advice. LOL
ReplyDeleteYes I read the list, lol, I meant you have 25 purifiers, and instead take 2x 10 and and lose 5 purifiers from the list. and then the GM makes them scoring as Strung muppet pointed out.
ReplyDeleteI just don't think those 5 purifiers will make that much of a difference, I'm not horribly scared of them.
I will say this about Spags lists. They don't really appear to be good and by most standards they're not. I say most because the one standrad they do meet is he does have a good record with them. Beyond that though I say that only because in order for most people to consider a list good it has to be able to be piloted by an idiot with little to no tactical sense and you don't get that from his armies.
ReplyDeleteHe does well because they're his lists and they are made to fit him as a player. Now I do like his lists because he is unconventional in his approach and puts more thought into how to play the army than relying on the list do the work. Spag is just one of those guys who is past winning to win and seeks to win on his own terms and with his own ideas and that is what sets him above those who would say otherwise of his lists.
With a list like this one here it could be cleaned up in my opinion. That is why I asked him if he likes Crowe. If he doesn't then there is no real reason to run him and I presented an alternate choice that builds on the basics of this list. If he does then his list is fine the way it is. I know for me it wasn't about taking away from his list it was about Crowe or no Crowe depending on if he likes the guy or just feels he needs him which he doesn't.
In general I don't like it when lists are called bad, ok or even great even though some may be. I feel the player makes these statements true about the list he is playing. The problem with putting a list on the net is its just a list and if it's not cut and dry what the purpose is people say its bad because they can't recognize the potential or plan. I think this is what also makes his lists good people who look at his list arn't quite sure what he's thinking and that is a good thing to have going for a player.
Actually, Crowe isn't horribad. I used him to decent effect at NOVA, and Spags has used him to good effect before as well.
ReplyDeletePeople underestimate Crowe. He's actually not bad. He's not Draigo awesomeness level, but he's an economical choice.
There's a good chance he can take down a Monst. Creature or IC with Heroic Sacrifice.
He's not bad against hordes, with Cleansing flame and Blade Shield, he can do just fine.
I used him to back up the Rhinoback squads (5 purifiers w/2 psycannon in rhino)
I think Crowe's a misunderstood tool. Plus, he lets me use my Halberd models as the much better purifiers, instead of overcosted strike squads.
as for why the smaller squads, Spag's got to have smaller 5 man squads to unlock the transports he needs for the force to function properly. With the Termies, he's now got to either DS them, or let the Squad, and half of them ride in the Raven, or footslog it.
I think this is the area where I'd actually argue that going with two ravens might be better.
If I'd gotten ravens, my list was going to look similar to my NOVA list, but with a Vindicare asassin, and 5 termies w/thawn thrown in. Then maybe upgrade the two dread to be Venerable.
Purifier builds are pretty viable, and Crowe becomes a liability if you let him be.
The dilemma with GK's is the wealth of good choices all crammed into the HQ section of the codex.
Then again, if I owned 30 GK's with swords instead of halberds, I'd probably be doing a Strike Squad list, and taking squads of elite purifiers, and try a GM to make them possibly scoring. D3 is still iffy.
@ Farmpunk I like your last line and forget that most older players have all halberd guys unless they have dropped money to buy new guys. That does make a difference between Purifiers and Strike Squads. I only run strike squads with swords and all halberd guys are Purifiers. The models you have do play a big part in how you build your list and I wouldn't pay for strike squads with halberds either.
ReplyDeleteI didn't really absorb any of Farmpunk's post because I blacked out when he said GKSS are overcosted.
ReplyDeleteIs it still Tuesday?
sorry,
ReplyDeleteI forgot the caveat:
GKSS w/halberds are overcosted when compared to Purifiers w/halberds (which are crazy stupid cheap for being pseudoterminators)
even when factoring in the *Crowe Tax*, Purifiers are still very reasonable troops.
Don't mistake my "list isn't great" for "list is bad because stelek/internees/dakka told me so". I'm new commenting here, but I write a bit for kirby, and do a lot of list building advice. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just saying why I don't think it's a solid build up, so don't misconstrue what I'm saying for trolling :)
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see a second storm raven, and maybe drop the rifle for a couple of mm dreads to raven ride. I personally love ravens, just that we don't get enough pts to viably run two in oz. (1750 is standard here)
Gives you a fair bit of variety- either start on the board, and turbo termis plus librarian in both ravens, with the dreads, and put a nasty block of pain in their face early... :) tasty :)
@Dan,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your comments.
You are correct in the fact that 2 ravens work great together. 1 is only good if it doesn't get shot down right away. If it delivers it's payload of a Multi melta dread and some termies or purifier then it has been effective.
Why go for force org changes? The purifiers with halberds are the best troop choice in the codex. You do have to have crowe for that. Terminators are great, but because it is ard boys and the first mission is victory points, I could not effectively take the list I took in the first round which was:
A crusader and 2 storm ravens. With Victory points 1 lucky autocannon or lascannon can loose me the round. I like my other list better but well, it doesn't make sense to take 750 victory points that can be taken out in 1/2 a turn of shooting. I hope that makes sense. And when it comes to fearless, I would rather be fearless with Grey Knights because my opponent will be less likely to get into assault with me. So, it is a double mental whammy to the opponent.
"Oh crap they are all fearless!"
"Oh crap if I assault them they will kill me first!"
This causes what I call an alert to go off in their brains that makes them make the wrong choice. One of my tricks of the trade. :)
I know a Black Templar player taking triple machine spirit vindicators to our Ard Boyz...I hope I'm there when he opens up on all the troops hudling in the center on turn 5... Bear in mind a vanilla marine list is capable of 12 scoring units right out the gate with combat squad (or like the Chaos Marine list I'm taking, 14 scoring units). The more I look at the scenario, middile-of-the road scoring units (8 or so)seems more vaible, because you're stillb rining enough whup ass to clear off a lot of the foe's scoring units. A blood angels triple land raider list followed up by troops in rhinos might totally negate all your purifier spam in short order.
ReplyDeleteThe theorycraft over the King of the Hill mission is getting a little out of hand.
ReplyDeleteFourteen scoring units? Considering eight as "middle of the road"? Really?
Too many people are re-writing their whole lists and bringing gimmicky nonsense because of that one mission.
You guys know the game still occurs, right? You don't just plop down all your scoring units and then count them up and go "damn, you brought more! MAJOR VICTORY."
It feels like we're going to see a lot of people picking up Combat Squads and Lesser Daemon Packs and parts of IG Platoons by the bucketful when they realize that "dash to the center, deploy 12 scoring units, await glorious victory" isn't necessarily going to always work.
Somebody's going to realize they left all their firepower at home when 90 Orks (three whole scoring units!) march into the center and start eating everything you're trying to chuck in there. These extensive re-writes just aren't warranted, and for reference, you still have to win the other two missions as well.
Oh, and you'll be able to hear the screaming from two blocks away whenever someone rolls Kill Points on the third mission.
ReplyDeleteTry this list with Pedro Kantor making the Stern Guard scoring(so with Combat Squading, u get 16 scoring units and Stubborn army-wide, with an orbital bombardment as well, and a few extra attacks):
ReplyDelete(175) Pedro Cantor
(310) Ten Man Stern Guard (Lascannon, Plasma Cannon) + Rhino
(310) Ten Man Stern Guard (Lascannon, Plasma Cannon) + Rhino
(205) Ten man Tactical (Flamer, Missile Launcher) + Rhino
(205) Ten man Tactical (Flamer, Missile Launcher) + Rhino
(215) Ten man Tactical (Flamer, Lascannon) + Rhino
(215) Ten man Tactical (Flamer, Lascannon) + Rhino
(215) Ten man Tactical (Flamer, Lascannon) + Rhino
(215) Ten man Tactical (Flamer, Lascannon) + Rhino
(145) Vindicator (Extra Armor, Dozer Blade, Hunter-Killer)
(145) Vindicator (Extra Armor, Dozer Blade, Hunter-Killer)
(145) Vindicator (Extra Armor, Dozer Blade, Hunter-Killer)
the odds of rolling kill points are agaisnt it. Mission 3, even more than 2, will require massed scoring units 662/3rd's of the time. it's not unwarrented at all. You're not going to win the tourney with three minor victories. And wow, with all the purifier spam, that's a lot of dead orks when you realize EVERY combat squad gets their clensing fire. Why do you think I'm not taking my Green Tide shoota horde that got me to semis in the first place? 30 orks shooting at 5 daemons is still 1 unit shooting at another....
ReplyDeleteYeah I also play up on things when the situation requires it. Last tourney I watched my opponent talk himself out of assauting 5 paladins, with a librarian, because I cast sanctuary.
ReplyDelete40k is won through volume of damage, and forcing your opponent to play to your plan, or at least deviate fiercely from his ;)
Edit: he had 40 boys in wagons ready to charge.
ReplyDelete@Warboss,
ReplyDeleteYeah but if you play a dark eldar beastpack army you are toast with your list. :)
@thegravemind, I just read your response. The GM may make the 2 scoring. He may only make 1 scoring. But I see your point. Thanks for the comments.
ReplyDelete(175)
ReplyDelete(355) Ten Man Stern Guard (PF, x3 Combimelta, x2 Combiplas, Lascannon, Missile Launcher) + Rhino
(355) Ten Man Stern Guard (PF, x3 Combimelta, x2 Combiplas, Lascannon, Missile Launcher) + Rhino
(245) Ten man Tactical (PF, Meltagun, Missile Launcher) + Rhino (Hunter-Killer)
(245) Ten man Tactical (PF, Meltagun, Missile Launcher) + Rhino (Hunter-Killer)
(255) Ten man Tactical (PF, Meltagun, Lascannon) + Rhino (Hunter-Killer)
(255) Ten man Tactical (PF, Meltagun, Lascannon) + Rhino (Hunter-Killer)
(255) Ten man Tactical (PF, Meltagun, Lascannon) + Rhino (Hunter-Killer)
(120) AC/LC Spons Pred
(120) AC/LC Spons Pred
(120) AC/LC Spons Pred
True, but he may make the two scoring, then you combat squad them.
ReplyDeleteor he can even making the dreads scoring.
I prefer the flexibility, but you know what works for you, you've proven that. Not really in question. It is a solid list, but I don't fear purifier spam as much.
Heh, the problem I see with the Storm Raven is that it puts such a huge percentage (points-wise) of your army at risk in an ultimately flimsy vehicle. At 2500 points (especially at Semifinals level), you won't find a lot of lists that won't blast it out of the sky the turn it comes in, even with the 3+ cover save I'm assuming you're giving it.
ReplyDeleteThe return you get for it is somewhat diminished- at 2500, what exactly can a single Storm Raven with a decent (but not super amazing) squad of guys threaten, that actually matters? When they *do* charge out and kill stuff, do you expect the Raven to live? To continue to contribute without that 3+ cover?
To me, it just seems like 2500 isn't kind to lists with a single Storm Raven.
However, overall the rest of the army looks fine- everyone's complaining about it being all over the place, but I feel like lists like that speak of either experience or new/crappy player. Since I know first-hand that you aren't the second one, the first one must be right :)
It should also be pointed out that you're trying to max out on the objectives in this tournament, which is a good idea, if you ask me. Guard are going to be a pain in most of these missions, as is any army that can go beyond 6 viable scoring units. (then again, when are Guard *not* a pain, lol)
Good luck at the tournament, hope you win another army- if you do, you should pick Dark Eldar! :-p
Thanks Xaereth! Your points are wisely taken. And I told Hulksmash if I do win I am getting Dark Eldar. You showed me they are an amazing army when played by a great player!
ReplyDeleteNow finally seeing the missions have changed slightly I might take the Space Wolves. Oh decisions decisions. No Dawn of War yeah! Which is one of the reasons I decided to not take Space Wolves in the first place. At 2500, that much firepower lost is too vital to a strategic game.
ReplyDeleteWarboss, that Marine list is rubbish. If the heavy weapon Combat Squads are advancing anyway because of the mission, then no reason NOT to take their best heavy weapon option, Multi-Meltas.
ReplyDeleteSpag, I respect your obvious knowledge of the game - but I think the list is unfocused. I think the same of your Wolves from NOVA. That isn't to take away from your achievement (and well done!) - but I think in general running an 'inferior' list relies upon you outplaying opponents every time, a risky prospect in any game so heavily determined by chance.
That said, an army you're familiar with and practised with is likely to work better for you than an even objectively superior list would do.
:)