Monday, November 22, 2010

Shall We Kill The Emperor?

by SandWyrm


I got into an interesting debate on BoLS a couple of weeks ago, and I can't stop thinking about it. It all started with Just_Me's post on Thorianism. A sub-sect of the Inquisition's Puritan faction that's obsessed with resurrecting the Emperor so he can once again lead the Imperium.

The discussion I got into in the comments thread though, wasn't about Thorianism. It was about the wisdom of moving the story forward by actually killing the big E off in say, 6th Edition, and then actually bringing him back in 7th.  

What follows is my edit of the thread from the BoLS comments. In true Dethtron style, the names have not been changed to spare the guilty. Although their avatars have for my own amusement. My own additional comments are snowmobiled in red.

Let us begin...

Porky_Poster

As good as ever, and sure to be of interest to those who've never read the sources.

One nit I'd pick...

"What do you all think of the Thorians? Who was 'right' in the original conflict of ideas? What seems to you to be the most likely route of the Emperor’s resurrection? Do you think that such a resurrection is even possible?"

I'm glad you chose to separate out the word 'right', but did the whole not ought to be written more cautiously? Perhaps along these lines:

"What do you all think of the Thorians as a concept? Who could be seen as 'right' in the original conflict of ideas? What seems to you the route GW is most likely to choose for the Emperor’s resurrection, assuming it ever comes about? Do you think that such a development is possible?"

We need to look out for all who could get a bit too carried away. They're on the way...

Chaos_Spawn

Of course it is possible. If GW thinks they can make a boatload of cash by bringing him back they will. As for how they will, will depend on how much they can make.




downwiththissortofthing

They will never do this because the boatload of cash they make will be the last cash they make.

So everyone would buy the new stuff and... stop? Huh? 

sandwyrm 

Not necessarily. GW just has to be creative about it.

Let's say in 6th Edition, the big E dies. The Astromican goes out, and the Imperium is thrown into Chaos. After 200 years or so, you'd have new human empires where psykers and technology aren't controlled like they are now.

So you'd have new Chaos-Human empires, advanced tech Human Empires, and neo-human (non-Chaos) empires with amazing psychic abilities. Plus new ascendant Xenos races that have been able to break free from the isolation the Imperium had imposed on them. Maybe the Hrud even crawl out of their holes and take over a few worlds. Or the Eldar take a few worlds under their wing (for their own purposes).

Mysteriously, the Tyranids flutter about aimlessly. As if the light bulb that had attracted them was turned off... hmmnnn...

That's just the creative excuse to roll out 4-6 new factions for the game. War continues as it always has. :)

Then, in 7th Edition, the Emperor is reborn (or is he?) You'll have human factions that unite under their resurrected savior, and just as many that view him as the Anti-Emperor, maybe even a new Chaos God! Written properly, it could go either way.

And the war continues as it always has. :)
    
Porky_Poster 

Nifty thinking, probably better ideas that any GW has stashed away. Probably.



    


Yriel_The_Angelic 


I like you. Um, I like you too. But in a Man way, not an Elf way...




Doomgrin

I can see human factions lead by (self)proclaimed avatars, messiahs, etc each claiming to be the emperor reborn. You've got it!


 
eldargal

So you would invalidate virtually all the current Imperial fluff, armies, miniatures even, alienate god knows what percentage of the playerbase, for what? Overreact much?

This kind of radical change is exactly the sort of thing you would not want to do, for every one person who likes it you will be alienating ten more who have just seen all the fluff they know and love be rendered void.

Yeah, just like Battletech did. Oh wait, I loved the story of the clan invasion and the new alliances that came of it. So did everyone I knew. What I didn't like was the crappy looking new Mechs and how an already overly complex game tripled in complexity at the same time that Adeptus Titanicus came out with a MUCH simpler combat system. Instead of literally spending 8+ hours on a large game filling in little circles, we could fight a battle out in 30 minutes or less!

If FASA hadn't screwed up the GAME, I'd still be playing Battletech and buying every clan invasion novel I could.

The fact is one of the great things about 40k is the fact humanity is on the knifes edge, it is the 'what might happen' that keeps people fascinated. If you then go and say 'this is what happens' that fascination is broken.

That's funny, Lost and the X-Files didn't have that problem in their heyday. For every mystery they explained, they gave you 2 more. Good storytellers always leave you wanting more.

Don't take this personally, your ideas are well thought out and interesting, and maybe GW could explore things like that in alternate timeline books as WarForge is rumoured to be doing with WFB. But if you change the core background like that, it will only hit the playerbase hard.

The playerbase wants more story and more variety. They want an Adeptus Mechanicus codex, some non-Tyrannical humans, and 2-3 more Xenos races that are just as cool as Marines. In short, they want a shake-up in a universe that's currently dominated by Space Marines. Just as they want more frequent army updates and better written rules.

Left alone, the stagnation of 40K will kill it.
   
sandwyrm

Why would these ideas invalidate anybody's army?

You'd still have an Imperium, it would just be 1/2 to 1/3 of the size it is now because of there being no Astromican. The Orks are still there. The Tyrannids are still there, albeit confused and looking for a new light bulb to fly to (their moves giving clues to where the reborn Emperor might be).

The Eye is still there. The Tau are expanding. The Space Marine Chapters are still around, though many have only tenuous ties to the Imperium at best. Some even form their own sub-empires and expand beyond 1000 men.

Think Rome circa 400 A.D. before the dark ages really started. It's still there, but fragmenting. The Imperium's worst fears are realized in some places, while others do much better for themselves and even evolve.

You'd have creative opportunities for new Human empires based on other themes. The Mechanicus would be freer to do their own thing (in league with the Necrons?). Twenty model Alpha+ Psyker armies (AKIRA!!!) would be possible, and new Alien races could come forth. Nobody loses their ability to play the armies they currently have any more than they do now between edition changes. You'd just gain new fluff options as the books are updated. And you could see ex-imperial troops in a lot of different and interesting places.

It playes into the real world's troubles right now, generates interest, and gets GW's creative juices flowing again. Sure, some people will cry, but many more will love it. And there's always the option to play an "M41" game instead of "M42" just as the pre-heresy die-hards do now.
oblivion_necroninja 
Right. The imperium's armies wouldn't change that much (unless the VoidDragon was released from Mars, thusly removing the source of the Adeptus Mechanicus's Techno-Fu), Or simply their need for the Imperium especially since (mechanically) the IG are now more dependent on Tanks than Manpower.

As for fluff: wouldn't it be cooler to have a Imperium with some real HOPE (and potential for GOOD), instead of a doomed future of stagnation and decay (and oppression and tyranny)? Damn Straight. 

The current fluff was invented in the 80's when times were pretty damn good all over and Grimdark was novel. But now things are getting darker the world over and hope is all the rage. So an escapist game had better wake up and stop depressing depressed people or they'll leave the hobby.

Display Name Is Required

Playing the wrong game, bud.

And what game should he be playing bud?



   
oblivion_necroninja
Actually, I really like the current Imperium. They make a great, galaxy-spanning, villain. If only GW treated them like one...

I used to think it was high-parody. But now I'm not so sure.
   





Scott Robinson

You're suggesting that the Dark Angels are just waiting for the right moment.





   
sandwyrm
I think the Space Wolves would be the first chapter out the door. They're no friends of the Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy.

I also doubt that any SM chapter likes tithing their gene-seed to Terra. Especially when the ships can no longer be trusted to get there. "Yeah, we'll hold onto that for you..."
Paul Mann

It Aint broke, so dont try and fix it....

Actually, it is broke. The hobby isn't growing like it used to, and the playerbase is sick of Marines.
   


eldargal 

If I were playing a historical game set in 150AD at the eight of Rome's power, I would not want to suddenly be told in fact the game was now set in 400AD and my soldiers had to be different, my characters were all dead and the Legion I play as got nearly wiped out.
You are talking about creating a different setting. I wouldn't object to it being explored on an alternate timeline series a la Warhammer Forge, but don't mess with the core story.



sandwyrm

The Imperial Guard has been essentially the same for the last 10K years. They're not going to suddenly change in 200-400 years time. They'll still be humans with lasguns.

Space Marines live a long time. So do the Eldar. And Necrons? HA!

Besides which we already have dead and/or historical characters in the current codices. So what's the difference? The number of people who care about this is VERY small. And they can be accommodated easily with an era system similar to Flames of War's.
   
eldargal

No, of course having the entire Imperium bureaucracy collapse because of the Astronomican being suffed out wouldn't impact on the Imperial Guard at all.

Not in game terms, which is all that matters to anyone who isn't a FAAC nutter.

Its not like that need food, weapons, orders etc from a central authority, and a warp capable Imperial Navy to ferry them around.:P

There was a human empire before the Astromican. It's just wasn't galaxy wide. The Imperium would shrink to 1/3 to 1/4 of it's current size, but it would still be there. And whose to say an alternate, but less powerful beacon wouldn't be set up in it's place. "See! The Emperor is still alive! Um, yeah. Alive! Move along citizen!"

Fact is you are talking about changing the very core of what the 40k setting is, for what?

More Stories. More Factions. You know, new stuff! Not just re-hashes of the old.

The people who want it assume the story they get is one they will like, what if it is not?

I don't like large aspects of the current Imperium. I have ethical issues with rooting for fascists. But I still play the game because for all it's faults, the fluff is interesting. That's all it has to be.

Then GW will have enraged most of the playerbase who liked what 40k was alreayd, and enraged most of the people calling for change by not delivering what they want. No, give it to Forgeworld if they want to touch it, otherwise leave it alone.

GWs open-ended fluff is one of their greatest strengths, will the Imperium facing imminent destruction, or is not?

And this question could be answered while asking many more:
1) Is the Emperor still alive?
2) If the Emperor's dead, will he return?
3) There's 3 guys claiming to be the Emperor reborn, who's right? 
4) Or are they all just aspects of the original?
5) Tzeench's fingerprints are all over this, what's he up to?
6) Why are the Hive Fleets going nuts?
7) What are the Necrons up to? Have they captured the Emperor's spirit?
Etc.

The only way this could be done badly is if it was all wrapped up nice and neat. As in:

"And the Emperor was reborn, united all humanity, and they lived happily ever after."


Taking that away (lulz 200 years go by woo) just seems nonsensical to me. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I just don't see why the finest sci-fi setting there is should be ripped apart.

And I don't see why it should stagnate and rot away instead of growing and evolving.

What do theBack40K readers think? I'll put up a poll.

Click Here For The Poll Results

38 comments:

  1. "So you would invalidate virtually all the current Imperial fluff, armies, miniatures even, alienate god knows what percentage of the playerbase, for what?"

    Oh you mean exactly what GW did with the Tyranid in the newest codex?

    As long as they don't screw it up like they did the tyranid fluff, then it would be great.

    I have only been playing 40k for a couple years, but seriously, it is getting stale. I mean, sometimes there is some fluff that makes it feel like it is moving forward, but then they retcon it or something. Vector engines are being pointed in a direction, but none are firing.

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  2. Wait, you liked the Battletech Clan stuff?

    I think I just lost all respect for you. ;-)

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  3. isnt there are less radical way to move the story forward than killing the Emperor?

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  4. Loved the fluff. Hated them in-game.

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  5. @Atr_127

    Not really. You could do an AdMech codex without it, but if you want more human variety in the current universe, you're going to have to break up the Imperium a bit. The most interesting way to do that is to kill the big E and see the fallout from that. It would also let some of the new human factions use existing IG units.

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  6. Porky's Avatar cracked me up!

    Fun stuff.

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  7. I'm none too much a fan of fascism either, but I do like the desperation of the Imperium. I've only been playing since 5th, so feel free to correct me, but the fading of the Astronomicon seems to be moving the story along.

    I wouldn't mind seeing an addition to the fluff, perhaps some techno-heretics who want to invent new ways and are caught between the Imperial Cult and finding a new way to keep the Imperium together logistically

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  8. ok i like 40k and all, but the finest sci-fi setting there is? no dont think so. fun to play, fluff is fun, but change some crap up for cryin out loud. crazy idea, idk, make the imperial guard not mecha, the orks not footsloggin, the blood angels not so over the top.....aaaaaahhhh!!! i guess its the same as always, add more, make each dex a bigger and tougher dex than the last and keep going.

    40k is kinda like inflation. lol...

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  9. I think it would be interesting to advance the fluff a bit, as long as it was done well. Consider some of the Star Wars Expanded Universe stuff, like the Thrawn trilogy or the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, which in my opinion was better even than the original movies. However, just because the fluff changes, doesn't mean the rules have to. Look at how many people have pre-Heresy armies which work perfectly well using M41 rules.

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  10. The real Inquisition were bad because they persecuted people for no good reason, but in 40k witches really do exist and heresy seems to spiral out of control pretty fast.
    The Imperium is brutal and draconian but it tends to play out that without their harsh line the consequences would have been much worse. I like the tragedy of it.

    The Emperor, yes! Kill him and advance the story! 40k has a million worlds to play with, you can always justify pretty much any story you want to tell, but I do think they've been flogging a dead horse for far too long with the carrion Emperor. I thought they were going to pull the plug with the 13th Black Crusade but they bottled it :( boo.

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  11. Ork fluff has changed drastically every edition. Each new Ork codex has basically been an entirely new faction that also happens to be made up of giant green dudes called Orks. Is there anyone that will argue that the current version isn't the best? A few maybe, but I'd guess not many.

    Also, people seem to be so adamant against advancing the storyline because it will cause people who love it to lose interest. How does keeping everything literally exactly the same for 30+ years maintaining interest? Storylines need to advance eventually, or else everything will get stagnant. This isn't Groundhogday40k.

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  12. P.S. - That being said I wouldn't want to live in a world in which the Emperor was dead. It would be way too sad. Like the death of Superman.

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  13. Eh, considering the Golden Throne is now broken beyond repair (of humans, at least), if the game moves more than 3 months into the future this is going to happen.

    Of course, you could pull one of those "and Harlequins jumped in and fixed the toilet for mysterious reasons"... or you could carry on the story.

    Maybe it's just me, but the various human factions seem interesting. I'd keep it to 3 - Ad Mech being their own, Loyalists, and Rebels, or New World factions, so to speak. Cultist types are already covered, more or less... and having too many IG variants is going to lead to the same problem with marines. "Hey look, more guys with lasguns... fun...".

    I giggled a bit when I first read that the Throne was taking a nose dive. It meant that something was going to happen. Possibly soon.

    Like I said - either some alien race/tech will save the day, so to speak, or the Emperor will die off... and having him just die... can't see that working nearly as well as the ideas above.

    Logistically, though - aren't Forge Worlds the main suppliers of... well... everything? Under normal circumstances the Imperium (or those factions willing to be realistic) would get off their bums and start building new tech. But would they live long enough to do so? With failing weapons in short supply, how long can they hold out against Orks, Nids, Chaos invasions, and DE Raids? I think a big issue would be allowing enough people to survive in the down time needed to build back up.

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  14. Kill the emperor and let him be reborn for sixth. I think that an imperium trying to unite could be an interesting idea and open ended in the sense that we don't know the outcome. I think it would be less disruptive for the game and they should hook it up as a series of books. Mankind has to choose sides and everyone has to up their game, do or die, the dial going up to 11. Time to put the cards on the table and race to win. Will the emperor unite mankind and somehow pull off a hail Mary or are chaos going to swoop in and spoil the party? Or will both be kicked in the nuts by the Necrons?

    Right now the story is "everyone's just loosing". They all could try to win, but they all just kind of loose. It's like the TSA took over the universe…

    Bah. Rant over.

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  15. @Anonymous Foodie
    Why no, many of them would NOT live long enough to do so. And thus, a bunch of hummies die, the Imperium of Man shrinks in size, and they make way for other races. And I finally have a chance to play space skaven as something other than IG proxies.

    Honestly, a company that once decided to REMOVE a playable race from the setting with story telling should not be afraid to shake things up a bit to add some new flavors. I don't know if they WILL, considering how big a stink they make about having to update every codex they ALREADY have, but they should still consider it an option.


    [Unrelated topic, I really don't care for these line by line rebuttals to other people's paragraphs. If they were actually talking people would never interrupt them every sentence like this, what made it being done in text okay? Let the stupid speak for itself, and THEN reply to it, point by point if that really is necessary.]

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  16. It doesn't bug me in 40K so much, but it does bother me in another game. There they should definitely advance the storyline. I mean, going back to Early War? C'mon, move things forward, not back! Let the Flames of War storyline progress and let folks build those 1947 German armies!

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  17. I'm all for a pretty serious shake up of what is fast becoming a stagnant setting, and I've only been playing sense about mid 4th... I have read through most of the fluff from all the previous editions however.

    @Heretic: The fading of the Astronomicon is a side effect of the Golden Throne not being able to keep up with the Emperor's failing health (well, failing vegetable state >.> ). So killing off the Emperor would, as AnonymousFoodie said, simply be advancing in-setting time forward a while.

    @Anonymous Foodie: GW could always use their magic game master power this time titled 'warp storms caused from the final death throes of the Emperor' (or just 'random warp storms' like they explained why the Tau were allowed to grow like they did) to protect the human populations, or the Forgeworlds and space marine chapters claim systems for themselves and provide for/protect them. Specially as many Space Marine chapters supposedly have their own fabrication systems for their commonly used weapons and equipment. But given the numbers GW likes to spout on populations, killing off most of humanity still leaves numbers in the trillions of souls, which should be plenty to rebuild even if they're scattered.

    Sadly though, I can't see GW killing off their Emperor, even to save the setting.

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  18. Its funny that you can mention the Clan invasion in BattleTech as an example of how moving the 40K storyline forward would be a good thing while completely omitting the Word of Blake crap.

    Yeah, I loved the Clans. Clan Wolf and Jade Falcons forever, but then they progressed the story even further and it turned into complete shit.

    If you have a progressive storyline then it has to continue progressing...a la Truce of Tukayid(sp?). This tends to either a) progress very slowly(which is what 40K is doing) or b) very quickly(in which case you run the risk of burning your material out completely)

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  19. "Yeah, I loved the Clans. Clan Wolf and Jade Falcons forever, but then they progressed the story even further and it turned into complete shit."

    That must have happened after I shifted to 40K. First I quit playing BT because the game was crap, then I quit buying the books and following the fluff.

    Honestly, as long as the fluff keeps everyone fighting everyone, things should be fine.

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  20. The first interstellar human empire was so vast that to this day they are still rediscovering planets that were settled by humans during the Dark Age of Technology.
    It was shattered because the humans could no longer travel the galaxy due to the warpstorms.
    Removing the Emperor and by proxy the Astronomican would only recreate the age of strife. There would be no smaller version of the empire, only death, doom and destruction.

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  21. I dropped the BT universe not too long ago as it got really, really stupid - the Clans were stopped by ComStar, a truce layed down, the Star League reborn and Clan Wolf was wrecked by Jade Falcon.
    Then the truce ended, the new Star League struck back at the Clan homeworlds, taking out Smoke Jaguar's genebanks, and that's about when I started losing interest. The current point it (rather appropriately) that the HPG network has been destroyed and the plotline has effectively been set back to 3015 with warring faction scrabbling over the ruins of the Star League.

    But I digress....

    "The current fluff was invented in the 80's when times were pretty damn good all over"

    Uh, not really - the UK had terrorism (IRA), was coming out of a recession and was pretty obsessed with grim (but with a sense of humour see Judge Dredd, the Young Ones, Rogue Trader), and there was the good ol' threat of total nuclear annihilation from the Soviets.
    Putting that in a game was novel though, but it was much, much more satirical about the over the topness of the Imperium.


    As for killing the Emperor, I think it could be done, but would need to be very carefully thought out. I don't mean in the sense of well written, but I mean in not invalidating people's armies.
    For instance say you love Marbo, he's your fave character in the universe and you take him any time you can. You build your Catachan army around him and Straken (#2 fave). Well, too bad - they died of old age 150 years ago in the new edition so you're outta luck.

    Extreme example I know, but something that would make me nervous about GW doing it. I do think advancement is good and should be done faster than it is now, but I don't think too quickly as settings which do tend to run out of ideas (Battletech, Star Wars EU [new sith wars, the Vhuzong Vong or whatever], Wing Commander etc).
    Testing the waters with some Forge World alternative futures to see what people like or another global campaign where something changes at the end would be good starts.

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  22. I hear Marbo III, Marbo's great grandson is one swell dude!

    One company that progresses their setting is Privateer Press and it seems to work out just fine.

    The Astronomican can end up going out all the way. The. Flicker back just as faint and slowly grow stronger. Don't tell anybody why per se. Then start a book series of the new emperor trying to unite and the issues that comes with that. That would keep the empire together good enough.

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  23. I think GW can safely let the good 'ol emperor safely fall off the golden Toilet (throne) weren't cracks spotted in the toilet bowl in the DA codex?

    If done well, the plotline of 40K can be advanced, and not really disrupt the gameflow. It has great potential to expand it, in fact.

    The Imperium fracturing at the idea of the Emperor's death, but still having to struggle to carry on is a great storyline to arc through the next 1-2 editions of the game.

    Space Marine factions officially breaking away to carry on their own business, IG battening down the hatches to defend their planetary empires. Sisters of Battle having to come to terms with the concept of their 'faith' still working despite the Emperor's death (to find they're ALL latently psychically active) GK's protecting the 'old imperial' ideals the emperor stood for... Ad Mech deciding to go their own way.

    Chaos could pick up some new traitor planets, Eldar craftworlds could hide out amidst the new fractured worlds, and 'shepherd' some of them along. Dark Eldar have a field day raiding all they want, Orks and nids keep doing their thing, but with the bugs starting to wander more aimlessly (since there's not a front porch light on at the imperial palace to draw them in anymore) Tau expand and absorb more human colonies to aid their "everyone get behind the humans... I mean, 'for the greater good' campaign"

    codexes won't become irrelevant unless you want them to be.
    FAAC bunnies can still go back and play 'Imperial' 40K, just like they do Pre-heresy.
    The current fluff just becomes 40K's 'silver age', and pre-heresy becomes the 'golden age'

    I'd like a bit new story and fluff, but everyone's still going to fight everyone else. Having the Emperor die will give imperials a bit better reasons to be doing it though.

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  24. I find it interesting that no one in the entire discussion brought up the lost/sleeping Primarchs. If you're going to throw the 40k universe off into left field, why not have Leman Russ return from the Eye and awaken Roboute Guilleman ? A primarch or two would certainly fill the leadership gap while the Emperor was being reborn/reconstituted/whatever.

    As for killing the Emperor; they already sort of tried to bring back Sigmar with Valten during the Storm of Chaos arc (how many Slayer armies did that sell?) so I wouldn't be surprised if they try a similar tactic to boost flagging 40k sales. As far as cash cows go (you know this is what drives their decisions, ultimately) they have an untapped one with the Sabbat Worlds storyline, and a Blood Pact codex with model tie-ins could go a long way. Instead of changing things on a macro scale, focusing on a regional conflict here and there would be interesting too. Since there's already a perfectly good IG codex, they could counter with an AdMech one (with models) and see where it goes from there.

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  25. Sandwyrm: I think that the fact that you chose the god emperor of dune for your own avatar says it all :)

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  26. Sandwyrm, I got inspired by this post to ramble with my own ideas on this, but I think the readers were much less receptive on my end. I went a different route with it though and thought of a way to push the setting without alterering the gameplay a whole lot.

    Overall a great article and the avatars were hilarious, particularly for Eldargal, which actually made me laugh out loud (not even the cliche lol)

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  27. I like some of the ideas in your article. I mean, what if a Chaos Legion did settle down and really try to guide their people through a psychic awakening? What kinds of new weapons and dark purposes would that generate? And would they be targeted by other Chaos factions that wanted that power and the remains of the Imperium that sees it as the sign of the end times?

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  28. @Dethron

    We just need our Duncan Idaho. ;)

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  29. @2501

    I like the idea of bringing back some of the primarchs. I would love nothing better than to half Russ back on the field. Since he is supposed to come back for the last battle that could mean he comes back for an epic battle and the big E dies.

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  30. I got to vote for the universe to move on. Reading the Blood angel codex has made it very appernt that something will happen, and soon (Yes i get my fluff from the codex, i am not a fluff bunny). the possibilities that it would open would be great! Chapter approved will be back with a vengeance!

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  31. Hey, if we're discussing apocalpytic 40k events, SOMEONE should have mentioned the Rhana Dandra...

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  32. I haven't known the game for more than 2-3 years, but I'm already tired with the overall story the 40k universe is stuck in. I'm not beyond thinking there are other ways to move the story along rather than letting the Emperor slip into the great beyond, but I think I'd be pleased if this is the way GW went.

    First and foremost, I want AdMech. I want AdMech reeeeally bad. It keeps me up at night. Sometimes I shove coax cables into my arms and neck, unable to cope with not having a true codex available. I've started work on my own FanDex for them (which you can find over at themagnetpro.blogspot.com <-Shameless plug,) but in the end it's not the real thing and there aren't an army's worth of models for them.

    Secondly, while SMs bring in the most money for GW, I'm sure; I think most die-hards are sick of how many Space Marine chapters get their own codex. It's the money maker, I get it, really. But it's getting old, repetitive and in GW's respect it's making the codex-crawl that supposedly doesn't exist(lolz) quite obvious to the masses. But I suppose this could be the issue for any branches of an army/race's base.

    The poll for this post is closed, now (I got here pretty late,) but it's quite obvious a large majority want the Emperor dead. Or at the very least want more/diverse/progressive/evolving story and see the Emperor's death as the train-ride to this goal.

    All-in-all, I'm bored. And if I'm bored, I can't imagine how the veterans feel. I'm no fluff-bunny, but I do keep up with the story as far as what each codex provides me with. I'm not saying I'm going to quit playing if GW does or doesn't do this or that. I'm just saying this whole game could be a lot better, and story progression seems like a great place to start.

    PS; give me my Omissiah damned AdMech! See what I did there? I'm a clever fellow.

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  33. I'm afraid you leave me no choice but to adopt my snowmobile picture as my avatar. I needed a new one now that I'm picking up DE anyways...

    Now that that's out of the way, I'm quite excited to see so many other people interested in advancing the plot. I've been an advocate almost since I started playing (near the start of 5e), although (due in part due to the fact that my main 40k bud is a Necron player), I've always been focused on the idea of the VoidDragon escaping from Mars. It's cool to see all of the interesting things that might come out of the Emperor's death.

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  34. At first I wasn't really a fan of the idea, but now that I've read through all the comments, this seems incredibly interesting! Where exactly is all the fluff on the failing Astronmicum / cracks in the Golden Toilet Bowl? I have about two weeks off for Christmas break so I'm tempted to try my hand at some sort of fan campaign / fandex-esque thing.

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  35. I am very intrigued by the notion of a fracturing Imperium after the death of the Empororer. Earlier, someone had posted that more races would be better - while this is great in theory, GW will keep pushing Space Marines because it is brand recognition. I love the idea of AdMech, and the worship of the God-machine. I have tried 3 times to do a AdMech army either based on a IG dex, or SM dex...doesn't work as well as if they had their own dex. There are so many good ideas here, and yet the only way they would actually see the light of day (besides a fan-based dex in pdf format.) is if GW wakes up, and realizes that change can be a good thing.

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  36. The current fluff was invented in the 80's when times were pretty damn good all over

    Not in Thatcher's Britain, they weren't.

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  37. My friends and I worked this out in a very elegant way today, and we're trying to see if we can make an unofficial expansion out of it ;) If you want details, contact me through my blog

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  38. BTW I know I posted this on April 1 but I'm not really joking. Also sorry for double post.

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