It has been a busy past week, but I've had some time to think and work on models. I've thought about fluff, budget, schedules and Army soul searching. I've came to one absolute conclusion, I enjoy armies that want to dismember you! Also, begin the train of thoughts.
Now I've been on a modeling spree the last week or so. I've been working on my secret project (more hints and pictures to come) which may or may not involve tyranid terrain. I've also gotten a few more games in with my Nids. And the more I do, the more I fear I do not like this new codex. Nothing really wrong with it, but it is no longer the army I collected and played. I just had an Ard boyz practice game a few days ago, and I won with a massacre, 21/2. And somehow I did not enjoy it. It was my second victory with the new nids. I was almost happier losing every game with the old codex, than winning with the new one. I'm not sure if it is because I don't feel like I have options or what it is.
Every couple of games seems to leave a bad taste in my mouth and makes me come back to my chaos. So the Nids go back to the painting table, because I have finally learned how to paint them well, while I assemble more marines. Eventually I'll figure out how to paint Power armor (my painting kryptonite at the moment). And it seems they will be one of the last codices to be updated, around 6th edition..... sigh. But, that is ok, because I actually can put a theme and fluff behind them, and still be playable.
Maybe that is my problem with my tyranids, I feel I can no longer have a viable themed army that plays well. An in-your-face army that is almost all close combat will not work anymore. Not that it really worked well before, but now they made things more expensive and even more fragile. With the inability to upgrade armor, genestealers and the like are hugging cover even more so, and now they cannot take flesh hooks, so they are almost always Imitative 1. Sometimes it feels like I'm playing an IG gun/tank line. Everything moves up, shoots, moves up, shoots, enemy gets close, move back, shoot, move back, shoot. Our rush units, raveners, hormagaunts and gargoyles, while more effective when they hit, now have huge hits to leadership from 10 to 6, and can no longer operate outside of synapse like they need to. It requires our entire army working in union for function, and it is worse than last edition.
We had trouble taking out a sniper or HWS that was out by itself because we had to dedicate a large portion of our army to getting them, because everything had to be baby sat and could not be sent out on their own. Sure now shooting is better and we can do that instead, but it does not ignore armor nor does it tie them up. It is also not the feel I want when I play.
This has turned into a longer rant than I expected, but it has made me realize two things. First, after Ard boyz, If/when I play my tyranids again, I will be dedicating more of my army to hormagaunts and genestealers and rush troops. I'll find a way to make it effective and by golly I'll have fun with it.
The second thing is I may end up doing the very thing I wanted to avoid. I was originally having my chaos themed around slaneesh because I like the high initiate close combat monsters (who have grenades!), but it seems the big S doesn't do combat as well as I would like. I always hated Khorne, because it seemed so barbaric, just madly assaulting forward. Sure I did it with nids, but it took finesse to make Gaunts kill things, they don't have 3+ armor. But the more my Tyranids seem to be losing that feel, the more I'm considering adding some dedicated assault to my CSM. This also is considered because Wolf's blood claws seem to keep rolling my units, AKA the most easily killed plague marines ever.
In closing, I've spent a lot of time and money into my tyranids, I can paint them well and I have an attachment to them so I'll always keep playing them. But until Mech dies down or something changes, I'm going to be playing my Rogue chapter a lot more than originally planned. Unfortunately I cannot afford to get them any of the nice things they deserve for now. These mercenary marines will have to make do with what they have, which is a lot if you have yet to face them.
So I’m changing my motto to
I'm with you on the Nid codex. I was intensely interested in starting a Nid army when it first came out. But I only see shooty Nid lists being very viable anymore. And well... my IG already do that better.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Khorne-as-Blood-Angels?
Do neither of you think a deepstriking nid CC army is viable? It's something I have been working on and playing, and while does take a surprising amount of finesse, I think it can be quite effective.
ReplyDeleteIs there something that you think blatantly prevents the army from being viable? Something I'm missing, and haven't come up against yet? (I haven't been playing with it for long). Or is it just the need for the FAQ to finally clear everything up?
Personally, I don't think that ANY deep-striking army is viable. Be it Nids, Daemons, Marines or anything else. At least against IG. Deep-striking has it's place in support of an army, but not as a tactic for the entire army. It's just too easy to take everything out piecemeal as it drops.
ReplyDeleteAs for Nid builds, I'm not going to say that close-combat is hopeless. Maybe there's a good build out there somewhere. But the Nids aren't the uber-assault army that I was expecting them to be before the codex came out. I really think that Orks do that aspect of the game better.
There are few problems with the deepstriking list.
ReplyDelete1. your anti-mech units, hive guard and tyrannofex cannot deepstrike, so are either left out of the list, or are the only targets on the board.
2. you need to dedicate a good amount of points in two hive tyrants to make sure your army does not come in piece meal.
3. If you are cc units, then you can't shoot when you come in, and you are stuck for a turn where you arrive.
4. If you are relying on CC to open tanks, then you will get shot/assaulted on the next turn to the infantry that came out.
Nids lack the drop pod assault rule, the needed corrections to trygon tunnel and lictors, and a way to survive a turn of shooting or assault the turn they enter. Original spore pods granted a cover save to the units that came in that turn, but GW changed that with the new codex.
Maybe try proxying daemons if you want an all deep striking CC army, as appealing as it is, it really is not survivable enough for Nids to do it. Maybe if we had meltas in each unit, we could pop tanks and then shoot with the next squad.
khorne as blood angels seems to be the hot new thing, though I did have the idea a year and a half ago before I ever had any marine models. I'm trying to avoid the flavor of the month BA if I can, but my marines are meant to be able to be played as either loyalists or rogue, so I might give it a try.
I'm going to have to say I am with you on this one. I played Nids for about 6 months up until this time last year when I sold them. I then started up again using the new codex. I have a 2,000 point army but it seems very little for 2k points. I feel the army seems to just about get a victory and relying on the big guys which cost a lot and aren't as cheap as they used to be.
ReplyDeleteTo me Tyranids is about a swarm with monstrous creatures as support. Even though I have two Tervigons I reackon if I dropped them I would have 370 points to play with; that's a lot more gribblies to play with and maybe pop in a slightly more attack orientated monstrous creature for more target saturation, maybe.
Deep strike suffers because of reserves rolls. If you've got ways to speed up reserves, it's better. If your opponent doesn't have a way to mess with your reserve rolls, it's better.
ReplyDeletefor armies with no way at all to modify reserves, don't do it.
When I face a Deep strike force, even with out an inquisitor and mystics, I almost feel bad. I get to face half of their army with all of my army.
it's like an alpha-strike situation. I'll have a LOT of guns to bring them down in the turn I get to unload on them.
If something lives, it had better be hell on wheels with a chainsaw and hand grenade sprinkles on top.
then again, I'm going to try to take down the nastiest stuff.
The only army I'd recommend trying DS with is Daemons. they at least get half their army 1st turn. and usually get the good half of the army first turn. friggin Fateweaver crazy saves. where's my psycannon rounds?
That's the thing- Nids do have the ability to modify reserve rolls. 2 Tyrants with hive commander are quite expensive, but I think they are definitely worth their price tag for what they bring to the table.
ReplyDeleteI really don't see why you would ever want the drop pod assault rule. That's exactly the reason why drop pod and daemon armies aren't really effective. By having half of your army coming on first turn, you just open yourself up to getting shot to pieces. If instead, the majority of your army comes in on one turn, then its going to be much more difficult to stop. Not even guard or tau can shoot a 3/4 (deepstriking blood angels) or 5/6 (tyranids with 2 hive commanders) in one turn, especially when both of the above lists bring firepower down to silence key vehicles when the come down. (BA have a shitton of meltas, tyranids have zoanthropes, pods, warriors, and trygons put out quite a few s5/6 shots).
Take my list for example:
Hive tyrant 255
Wings
Double scytals
Hive commander
Hive tyrant 255
Wings
Double scytals
Hive commander
2 zoanthropes 160
Mycetic spore
2 zoanthropes 160
Mycetic spore
10 termagants 90
Mycetic spore
Tervigon 180
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs
10 termagants 90
Mycetic spore
Tervigon 180
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs
Trygon 210
Adrenal glands.
Trygon 210
Adrenal glands.
Trygon 210
Adrenal glands.
the pods will give cover to the trygons that drop right behind them, and the gaunts will fill the gaps between the pods to act as a speedbump for units I don't want charging me. It the tervigons outflank via hive commander, and 5/6 of the army coming in first turn and too MC's to bring down very quickly. If I'm missing something that makes the above list ineffective, then please tell me. I think most deepstriking lists are not very viable, but not all, namely jump BA and tyranids, for the reasons I have already listed.
oh and sorry about hijacking the post! I was just trying to show you that I think its very possible to still have a CC oriented tyranid army. Don't give up!
I actually dropped my CSM with the new codex for a similar codex. Sure I could win games with the new codex but all of the fun and flavor seemed to be sucked out of the list.
ReplyDeleteI eventually picked back up my spiky marines, but now they only get marginal builds and fun lists.
The reason I see it is its not that only half of the army comes in, its that the other half then comes in staggered. I suggested the drop pod assault rule, so that things like trygons and lictors are guaranteed to appear first turn, so their effects are actually used when everything then comes in the next turn. drop assault rule is great when combined with reserve modifiers.
ReplyDeleteWe don't have that great, if any, real anti tank short range attacks that would be good to drop in, besides zoanthropes. which get hooded or only hit one maybe two targets.
It's not hijacking, it's a discussion of the topic presented. as for the list, I'd just walk the tyrants on from normal reserves and forget about the wings, and make the gaunts devourers. saves points and is safer.
I have my marines both fluff and list wise to be able to be played with any of the various dexes. They are chaos, but wolves so far seems like they fit well too. A shadow captain shrike marine list might work for them too. I have yet to really have a look at the BA book to see what damage they would cause. No matter what, I need more mech! Guess I'll have to build some techpriests first.
Tyler, how many points is that list? I really like it and looks quite a bit like mine - except I'm using gargoyles as a bullet shield and got a Tyrant on foot.
ReplyDeleteIf you could let me know the points that would be great :)
Sorry, I forgot there isn't a standard. Lol. It's 2k. I'm glad you like it. How does the foot tyrant work? Do you usually not reserve the army? If so, doesn't he get shot off the board first turn?
ReplyDelete@TheGraveMind: If you don't want to run the flavor-of-the-month Blood Angels, try running a Khornate Space Wolves army (Space Wolves are sooo last summer). Some Berserkers on Juggernauts would look awesome.
ReplyDeleteJust don't take "Long Fangs." As good a unit as they are, they have no place in a Khorne force :)