Hey SandWyrm,
It's Andrew again. I finally faced the music. As much as I hate to say it I'm forced as a nid player to shoot my guns at things.
With this recent development I made a new list that I'd like to run by you. What pushed me to this list was I wanted to win games, not just tie them.
HQ:
Hive tyrant HVC Tyrant guard
Troops:
Tervigon, toxin sacs, adrenal
10 termagaunts
Tervigon, toxin sacs, adrenal, catalyst
10 termagaunts
Elite:
3 Thropes in a pod
3 hive guard
Doom in a pod
Heavy:
Tyranofex Rupture cannon
Tyranofex Rupture cannon
Let me know your thoughts and opinions ^_^
SandWyrm's Reply:
I feel your pain.
When the Nid codex was first announced, I thought that they would be THE premiere assault army. Oh well. Reality is what it is.
I do like your list. The only reservations I have are the Doom and the Zoeys. I think that they're just too fragile for what they do. I'd drop them both and take more Hive Guard.
Boring? Yes. But effective.
1. The tyrant with a HVC isn't running forward. The points you pay for him and the guard is for melee not shooting.
ReplyDelete2. Doom blows in general
3. Zoanthropes have similar issues. And you have tyranofexs for landraiders.
4. 2 venomthropes a) protect you from assault b) keep the tyranofexs alive b) allow gaunts to assault armor 10 c) worth every point.
so try this:
1 Hive Tyrant (Lash Whip & Bonesword; Old Adversary; Leech Essence; Paroxysm)
1 Tyrant Guard (Lash Whip)
2 Hive Guard Brood
2 Hive Guard Brood
2 Venomthrope Brood
1 Tervigon (Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; Catalyst)
1 Tervigon (Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; Catalyst)
10 Termagant Brood
10 Termagant Brood
Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon; Thorax Swarm (larvae))
Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon; Thorax Swarm (larvae))
Total Roster Cost: 1590
I go with a slightly different approach with my current list... I actually do like the venom cannon on the hive tyrant... which if you put onslaught on a tervigon can still run and shoot with general ease.
ReplyDeleteVenomthropes are indeed very close friends of mine currently making everything a bit harder to kill in almost any aspect.
I like mathhammer's list.
ReplyDeleteThanks again Sandwyrm.
ReplyDeleteMathhammer- I wont argue with your list. It is of course how tyranids almost have to be ran to be competitive. The downside is it's simply not enjoyable. I've ran it, tried it, hated it. I was tying games until I added in the second tyranofex. Now I win games, but it's a lot less fun to play which is where I'm running into my snags. How do you find a list that's fun to play, yet still wins games? A "fun" list is varies from person to person of course.
Ok now my argument for doom. Rarely do I have him not pay for himself. He's great against other tyranids, also Razerback spam, guard weapon teams, along with marines for his large blast. The down side, before you say it, is T4 no eternal warrior.
My tyrant does walk forward and assault, I take paroxsym and keep a pair of talons. There's no reason he can't shoot and walk forward ^_^
What would you think of:
Tyrant (2 sets of talons, old adversery, Essense, paroxysm, hive commander)
2 Guard Lash whip
3 Hive Guard Brood
2Thropes in pod
Doom in pod
1 Tervigon (Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; Catalyst)
1 Tervigon (Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; Catalyst)
10 Termagant Brood
10 Termagant Brood
Tyrannofex Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex Rupture Cannon
Mawloc
I'd say go with the Mawloc OR the Doom. Not both. My preference would be for the Mawloc, as it's effective against both infantry and tanks.
ReplyDeleteyrant (2 sets of talons, toxin sacs, old adversery, Essense, paroxysm)
ReplyDelete2 Guard Lash whip
3 Hive Guard Brood
Leaper
Doom in pod
1 Tervigon (Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; Catalyst)
1 Tervigon (Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; Catalyst)
10 Termagant Brood
10 Termagant Brood
Tyrannofex Rupture Cannon
Tyrannofex Rupture Cannon
Trygon
Oh, hello there, Stelek.
ReplyDeleteRE: Rionnay / nightstalker
ReplyDeleteIf our running onslaught, and pushing your hive tyrant forward that solves the shooting and running action; however, you loose the ability to cast FNP with that Tervigon. The other things I note is usually the items you paroxysm are not the models you want to shoot the HVC at. I find in most games i paying 25 points plus support cost for 2 shots and those are points i would rather spend else where.
Without onslaught I find the Tyrant to be 3d6 inches from where he could have been.
An idea I have been looking at for the hive tyrant is a winged hive tyrant with 2 guards. You push the unit forward, If they kill the guards then the tyrant is free to jump into their lines. If they don't try to kill him he will walk into close combat. Sort of a devil's bargin unit. (note: I haven't fully tested this just tossing it out there)
On the doom. The arguments have been made in various forums. I just don't find them useful in most list. (I want even go into all the hoods i see these days) Also on this note I find my Hive Guard live longer and kill more things in the long run.
For the record my fun style list is either 48 hormagaunt swarm, or a ripper carpet. I rarely post my fun list stuff on the forums though.
As an IG player, Mawlocs scare me. Trygons and the Doom don't.
ReplyDeleteRE: As an IG player, Mawlocs scare me
ReplyDeleteI really wanted the Mawloc to be good. I built 2 of the models. I really liked it. It was going to be my non-linear element is my vast hormagaunt carpet. I could already see it in my mid. I would build custom thumper markers. (thin Dune the movie) and shout out "Worm Signs".
Then reality came and crushed those dreams.
1. A mawloc doesn't have fleet.
2. No rerolls via talons.
3. WS 3 with 3 attacks (kill1 guardsman a turn!!)
4. The move things is very opened ended and you can move stuff in any directions to get it away from it, so destroying a vehicle is rough unless you surround it first.
5. Double tapping plasma guns suck. Really suck.
6. 170 points for a feather weight fighter that is slow and has a single trick.
That list is similar to my tournament list, so good start I guess. I'm not a big fan of Tyrants, but if they work for you then kudos. But run him right. I don't have my book on me, but old adversary is the preferred enemy ability right? so no need for the sets of talons. Sure they help against vehicles, but the reason for this list build is to shoot the tanks. Keep him with his whip/sword, they are offensive and defensive in one choice.
ReplyDeleteHis second arm should be a gun if you have the points. Devourers are fine, run him the first turns, then shoot and assault when you get there. I like mine with the barbed strangler, makes him a threat at range. Tyrants are more of a buff unit, and good at board control. He is still dangerous to hold his ground, so keep him mid-field. The Tyrand has become a late game finisher, instead of the line breaker he was last edition.
And I agree with above on the mawloc. Hasn't been worth it. keep the doom if you want.
Foodie, be nice. Unless you have Carlos's luck, this list is the best way to go for tournaments. haha. Though I am working on rebuilding my Nids into a less standard list, but that will require extensive playtesting.
Mean or nice, it's the truth. It's a pocket list that, in my opinion (and I'm agreeing with the poster here) looks boring.
ReplyDeletePeople try so hard to turn bugs into a different army... ie one that has melta-spam. They're not, and they don't. But that doesn't mean they don't have ways to deal with vehicles.
To be perfectly honest, to me lists like these seem not only dry and cookie cutter, but downright thoughtless.
Tyranids have a number of ways to deal with armor. Very few of them look the same as what most armies bring, but that fact alone does not make them poor choices.
Fun and Useful are not mutually exclusive, either. Using something that requires thought also means that it will require more thought to tear it down.
Taking this list as an example (and it's true of any of this style, I'm not trying to come down overly hard on this one in particular) - to beat this list you have to know how to handle.. what... 6 units? If you know how to kill something, you know how to kill its clone. Fielding a variety (13 right now, possibly down to 12 in the near future) means I have twice as many types of threats which require different answers to be dealt with.
A few S10 potshots don't scare me, be it my Nids or my DE. Yeah, you'll kill some stuff. But not nearly enough.
I was just joking around when I said be nice. I know what you meant.
ReplyDeleteI've ran this list, and have done very well. I am actually going to run this list again soon. But I have never said it was fun. I gave up playing my nids shortly afterward. But it is one of the most efficient ways. Now I said efficient, not effective.
Yes, nids do have many effective ways that people ignore, but that is because they require experience and finesse, which many people jumping into Nids don't always have or know how to use.
I'm confident enough that in most cases now, I can have one squad of hiveguard, and the rest of the army can be what ever I want. I don't need three squads of them, and two t-fexes. But it means I'll need to consider the other Things I'm bringing, and how I use them.
I'm always happy to play against someone else's nids. With either my marines or my Nids. I know how to handle them, and I'll let you know how I tear them apart.
Nid V Nid is typically one of those matchups where you're not always hitting on 4's and wounding on 4's... it's a nice break from mirrorines.
ReplyDeleteAnd no worries, I figured I should expand a bit beyond simple mockery.
It's not just Nids, really. It seems a lot of people want the melta-spam 'easy button' type units that do what they do, and do it obviously. Efficient, yes. The 'superunit' of 5 trueborn in a venom with 4 blasters is "awesome", so they say. I say 5 Warriors die from a single round of lasfire. Not even double-tapping. Yes, DE are fragile, but I have my limits.
Ah well, let them use thier Tyrannofexen and their mass Hive Guard.
I, instead, will use tactics.
As some of this not using tactics is aimed at my replies I thought I should reply.
ReplyDeleteAs I have stated above, in general, unless otherwise noted or ask for I give tournament level advice. In the tournament level you see list that range from foot space wolves to 4 land raider list sporting a +5 cover save. I'm fully aware of the various ways Tyranids can open the tin cans with food in them. Unlike most people I even generated numeric data to study it:
http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=196695.msg2414319#msg2414319
The issue comes down can you open the vehicle, and can you do it fast enough. Pushing a 130+ models slows done games and will give you fewer turns. Tie this into melee verses vehicles is a rough prospect even with a Trygon. The new Tyranid codex has given us three ranged vehicle openers. Hive Guard are worth gold in this case. T6 no LOS need with 2 wounds. After the vehicles are gone their still very efficient against squads and the random IC.
Tyrannofex are a big cannon, but more important than that they can still open vehicles up in close combat. (around a 12% on AV14). They also carry a flame template that can wound on 2s. So your tactical view of them being just 2 shots that sit in the back is rather wrong.
The argument on Zoanthropes has been done to death elsewhere.
I believe tactics primary are focused on applying the right tool with the correct level of force to neutralize the target.
In the Tyranid world and with all the fast food running around, the ability to project force has become even more of an issue. While the limit of only 6 troop slots and the need to control upwards of 4 objectives by the end of a game has caused the adoption of Tervigons. The return of even faster vehicles and more enemies that are better in close combat than Tyranids is forcing a greater reliance on ranged force projection to control the opponents ability to move.
Hey everyone, go to class for 10 1/2 hours come back and what do I find? Tons of great posts.
ReplyDeleteA-Foodie- List isn't terrible unfun (not a word) to run but it does get repetitive. Like mentioned running a carpet swarm list is not practical in tournaments because of the time limit. Running this list does involve everything to move up. Sitting on the back line shooting doesn't work so hot.
Grave- Old advisory isn't just for him, it's for everything friendly within 6" therefore the guard, the gaunts the tervigons w/e else is playing with him that day. That's the main reason for running it, also where would the 25 points go? regen on a model. . . please. Maybe toxin sacs and adrenal glands on the Trygon but still how much will it really help? Go ahead say against vehicles, if the Trygon is taking care of Landraiders yes, anything else no.
Mathhammer- You're right >_< hate saying it, kidding, but jokes aside you are right playing swarms is silly in tourney play. Also close combat takes awhile to resolve so try to shoot as much as possible. Lastly I am one of those people with the 4 raider list. I finally figured out how to play it also, couldn't quite figure out how to deal with 2+ save armies *coughSandwyrmcough* but I got it now I think. ^_^
I wasn't saying get rid of Old adversary. Just the opposite, keep it, always. What I meant was there are no need for the scything talons since they do the same as preferred enemy. Change them to guns and lashwhip.
ReplyDeleteFor the love of god, please don't take toxin sacs on the trygon. Adrenal glands are the only thing I would consider putting on a Trygon. +1 strength is good against vehicles, and +1 initiative is good against infantry. But neither are normally needed.
Mathhammer, I'm going to have to steal that line.
"I believe tactics primary are focused on applying the right tool with the correct level of force to neutralize the target."