So here's the deal - I post my 2000 point, all-comer's Nid list, and you tell me how/why it fails at life.
2 Detachments, split as you please.
Hive Tyrant - Wings, Toxin Sacs (typically rolling on Biomancy tables)
Tyranid Prime - Deathspitter, Sword/Lash
Zoanthrope x2 (powers determined by adversary)
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2
Hive Gaurd x2
Ymgarl Genestealers x8
Tervigon - Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs (typically rolling on Biomancy tables)
Termagants x20
Hormagaunts x20
Warriors x5 - Deathspitter
Carnifex - Twin-linked Devourers w/Brainleech Worms, Talons
Trygon
Biovore
Biovore
1999
15 KP
A few notes.
I've yet to play around with a Flyrant, but the concept is simple. Fast, mean, deadly. Even without new powers, smash attacks at I5 are going to gimp things (here's lookin' at you, space wolves). A walker with Brainleech devourers could be a likely substitution - that 2+ is not to be ignored, and it adds some more mid-range pummeling. I'd have to remodel my walker for that, but it's doable. Could also add Old Adversary for a pretty nasty shooting bubble.
The Fex is likely to be on the chopping block - I'd love some fast attack in there (raveners or gargoyles), but I can't help but try him out in the new edition. Having 4 MC's on the field is what I like to call a public relations nightmare. Even if he gets dropped, though, it's still 3 MC's, 3 sets of Hive Guard, and 2 T4 multi-wound broods - you tell me where the missiles go first.
Ymgarls I have never used, but I think are starting to shine more than ever in this edition. Stealers having a 5+ save never bothered me until I started taking shots during charge moves. Not only does the 4+ help against most of these, but jumping up to T5 if you really need it is a massive boost against small arms fire.
They're also a (small) safegaurd against short-edge deployment. I don't have to care if you're 36" away from me when I can start in your backfield. More reliable reserves only helps, also.
The rest is (I hope) fairly self explanatory. Bugs run up. Bugs shoot the biomass. Bugs eat the biomass.
See any glaring weakness? Any units/tactics you wonder how I'd handle? Plug away, and I'll answer as best I can.
Just a note on the topic of Carnifexes/Gargoyles/Raveners:
ReplyDeleteThe Telepathy discipline is basically a toolkit for screwing with the Ld6/7 varieties of Tyranids. Dominate or Terrify (and obviously Hallucinate) will all generally take them out of the fight for a turn, and even the Primaris will nearly one-shot a Carnifex.
All that low Leadership is something that should be taken into account now, because Synapse isn't enough to protect you anymore. Termagants, at least, can get a pass because Brood Progenitor allows them to use the Tervigon's Ld if they're close enough, but everything else is rather heavily exposed against straight-Ld powers.
Being out of the loop lately I have no idea how prevalent Telepathy actually is right now, but it's something I've been trying out personally on allied CSM. It's virtually impossible to get a bad set of Telepathy powers against Tyranids.
Good points - although, aside from dropping everything not-Ld 10 from the list (which I'd hate to do) I don't see much of a way around them beyond getting in their face with Shadows. I'll just have to be aware of the powers and run accordingly.
DeleteYou've got too many elites choices...you might as well bundle the hive guard into 2 groups of 3 (if you can?). And I hate to say it...but more troops! Another brood or hormagaunts would be a good addition, or termagents if that's your thing.
ReplyDeleteIt all depends on where you can make the points really, or what you've got in mind tactically. Looks cool though.
Edit: Sorry, just noticed the 2 detachments note. Anyway...yes, more troops!
DeleteMore troops. If your Tervigon blocks up on the first poop, the list is screwed.
ReplyDeleteYou don't have enough stuff to kill MEQs I think, too many hive guard, I don't think you'll need them as much. Has the trygon been working for you? cause mine has done nothing but draw fire and die every game.
ReplyDeleteIf you can get ymgarl up to 10, I'd do it, cause they will be pulling a lot of weight and the longer they live the better. Same with biovores, squads of 1 don't scare much. squads of 3 firing multi barrage just start to scare MEQs.
Most lists with a decent amount of shooting can easily drop 1-2 MCs a turn, and with the fex and terv being slow, and trygon possibly in reserves with the tyrant, the target priority is easy. I'd try and get Devourers on the tyrant, it will be well worth it. If not turn 3 is the earliest he will be doing something.
General comments -
ReplyDeleteMore troops seems to be a rallying point. First question, then - how many separate troops does everyone feel is necessary? I currently have (effectively) 5, with potential for more. This amount served me well through 5th (in which case most missions required troops to win) and so I went with a similar amount in 6th (in which case most missions require troops to win).
On hive guard - again, 6 is the typical number I was running at 2k. Wanted to try splitting into 3 groups to give me the option of splitting fire between more targets. They're still the primary anti-tank at range, as Zoey's will often be trading out Warp Lance. They also function as a great utility unit vs Bikers and other high toughness, multi-wound models... particularly with a shot of enfeeble thrown in. They're also one of the few "answers" to flyers, since they have a high enough rate of fire to (sort of) threaten them.
Will keep an eye on them, though, and see if 2 broods of 2 will serve well enough.
Killing MEQ's - Tyrant, Trygon, Tervigon, Termagants (backed by Tervigon), Ymgarls, Prime, Carnifx... half of the list can dang near walk through an MEQ squad... do I need to start equipping hormagaunts with boneswords to be competitive vs a 3+?
I would have thought I had plenty of units capable of scrapping heavy armor (and the rest can put up a decent fight due to sheer numbers, for the most part). Suggestions on a ratio/specific units to try to fit in?
Biovores - the reason for the split (promise there is one!) is more about the utility of Barrage rather than sheer damage potential. Downside, it adds another KP to the list. Upside, though...
I can split fire, or concentrate as needed.
I can pile on 2 separate pinning tests (potentially), or spread them around the enemy if the first succeeds.
I can snipe where I want with two separate shots.
Against MEQ's I don't expect to do much damage, but I do expect to still force Pin checks. Against any other army, they start to be a threat on all fronts.
Tyrant - Turn 3? 24" move + 2d6" run + 12" move + 2d6" assault... that's potentially crossing the full length of the board by turn 2 (and then some). Could you explain to me how he's not reaching anything until turn 3?
Carnifex, tyrant, trygon and tervigon are all going to be high priority targets. Tervigon will most likely not even make it into combat, and the prime if with warriors may be too slow as well.
DeleteTyrant held in reserves comes in maybe turn 2, moves up, next turn changes mode and can assault, that's turn 3. If not held in reserves, then isn't hit on 6s and will be shot down immediately. Even if swooping, a few extra infantry shots can ground it on some good dice.
As a DE player I think it's my duty to point out that the crucible of Malediction will do horrific things to lists like that (as though DE weren't already enough of a headache for Nids)
ReplyDeleteGrey knights hate it more ;)
DeleteIt's like the shriek power... there's little more I can do than to try to stay out of its (limited) range. At least I'm Ld 10 for any checks... that's about all I can say >.<
here's my current list. . .roughly
ReplyDelete2 flyrants-460
2 tervigons-380 (1 without toxin)
2x10 babies-100
2x3 hive guard-300
20 hormos poison- 160
2 zoanthropes-120
5 shrikes lash bone-250
10 ymgarl- 230
What i've found is 1 flyrant dies. . .fast and hard. Where 2 I have a little more give and take for the rest of the army to stay alive while people shoot at the second one. The 2 squads of 3 guard can down a rhino each a turn but on average dice 2 hive guard have a harder time doing that sadly, So I second the making them 2x3 rather than 3x2 if you can. Troops. You and I both run similar troops the only differene is I run an extra Tough6 creature. . .but you run a huge 15+ wound squad so which is better? So yes I think a minimum 5 troops is needed. I know my troops are 2 10 man guant squads but I have the ability of making 2 squads a turn to your 1. So yes more troops
Biovores. . .hmmmmm I like the idea of 2 seperate squads because I'd rather have a scatter on a miss then flipping and completely falling off a squad. But for your list do you need them? I think 2 extra hive guard (need 10 points) will do you more good. That's up to you though.
I think the issue Gravemind is trying to point out but not getting across is your enemies target priority. Warriors just arent that scary in combat. . .sadly, sure tons of attacks but it's still armor saves which is fine. They do shoot a lot, but maybe 2 turns that's all. So they are out. Termas. . .no, hormos, yes maybe if they really are scared. But the big targets go Tervigon- tyrant- TURN 2 trygon- carni. by doubling my army almost straight down the middle I have 2 of everything that way if I lose one I SHOULD be fine.
Also assault units. hmmmm yes ymgarls help this but what happens with that corner case of 20 terminators on the table? how does your list kill that? Mine. . .I hope for enfeeble and hit the terminators with that then send in shrikes and pray. I also have 2 tyrants to help do the lifting. With your list you have a warrior squad but I'm assuming they dont ignore armor. Plan?
Troops-Drop biovores-target priority- assault termis
The things I think you and I both need to watch out for are Manticores. . .my god. Manticores tear my army to pieces and they hurt yours even more simply because of hitting that warrior squad or those hive guard. Any ideas on avoiding that? My only thought was go first and pray they are dumb enough to put it right across from hive guard. . .I dont like this plan.