Dennis Writes:
I’ve got a 2000 point tourney coming up and it occurred to me that the list that I’m taking is somewhat similar to your most recent one. I’d be curious to get your take on this one.
HQ
Company Command Squad w/4 x Plasma, Chimera (HB/ML)
Primaris Psyker
Troops
Platoon Command Squad w/4 x Grenade Launcher, Chimera (HB/ML)
+ Infantry Squad w/Grenade Launcher, Autocannon, Chimera (HB/ML)
+ Infantry Squad w/Grenade Launcher, Autocannon, Chimera (HB/ML)
+ Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 x Autocannon
+ Special Weapons Squad w/3 x Flamer
+ Special Weapons Squad w/3 x Flamer
Veteran Squad w/3 x Melta, Chimera (HB/ML)
Veteran Squad w/3 x Melta, Chimera (HB/ML)
Veteran Squad w/3 x Melta, Chimera (HB/ML)
Fast Attack
Hellhound w/Multi-Melta
Hellhound w/Multi-Melta
Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank w/Hull Lascannon
Leman Russ Battle Tank w/Hull Lascannon
Leman Russ Eradicator w/Hull Heavy Bolter
SandWyrm's Reply:
I think that you're way too heavy on anti-horde and long range cover denial. While being a bit too light on anti-transport units.
Realistically, you can only expect to suppress 3-4 Rhinos on the first turn and maybe half as many Chimeras/Drednoughts. That's not enough these days. You're also going to have problems dropping Tyranid monsters with 2+ and 3+ saves because you don't have any lascannons in your force. Wiping out the small bugs is all well and good, but you need to kill the big ones too or they'll just keep pooping out more.
A lot of your need for so much long range anti-troop is probably due to the fact that you're not taking heavy flamers on your Chimeras. Honestly, you'll kill more Orks in one round with the heavy flamer when they get close than you will all game long with a heavy bolter. So I just don't see the point of them. Heavy Bolters also encourage you to sit still when you should be moving.
So I'd drop the Eradicator and a Hellhound to free up the points for some Vendettas or Infantry Lascannons. Generally, you want least 1 Lascannon for every 2 Autocannons in your army.
What does the community think?
I like the SWS idea, that's pretty nasty. I assume you'd take the inf squads out of their chimeras and put the SWS into them at the start of the battle? Pretty sneaky.
ReplyDeleteThat was my assumption.
ReplyDeleteActually, the idea for the SWSs was to walk them behind the Chimelta squads and hide the Chimeras and/or Russes. They're intended as a "point-defense" unit or to cook the marshmallowy goodness that falls out of transports. The option for a ride swap is definitely there, if a more mobile BBQ squad is called for.
ReplyDeleteI made an error in the list on the Chimera load-out, only the Platoon IS Chimeras are loaded with Hull HBs, the others are modeled with Hull HF.
It would be pretty easy to drop the Eradicator and the AC HWS for 2x Lascannon HWS and a Armored Sentinel with a Multilaser.
You need some lascannons in addition to what you already have.
ReplyDeleteMaybe something more like:
ReplyDeleteHQ:
CCS: Camo Cloaks, Regimental Standard, Lascannon, Plasmagun, Plasma pistol
Lord Commissar
Troops:
Infantry Platoon 1:
PCS: 4x Meltagun, Chimera
IS: Autocannon, Chimera
IS: Autocannon, Chimera
IS: Autocannon, Meltagun
SWS: 3x Flamer
SWS: 3x Flamer
HWS: 3x Autocannon
Infantry Platoon 2:
PCS: 4x Meltagun, Chimera
IS: Lascannon, Chimera
IS: Lascannon, Chimera
IS: Lascannon, Meltagun
SWS: 3x Flamer
SWS: 3x Flamer
HWS: 3x Lascannon
Vet Squad: 3x Meltagun, Chimera
Fast Attack:
Hellhound: Hull MM
Hellhound: Hull MM
Heavy Support:
LRBT: Hull Lascannon
LRBT: Hull Lascannon
@Ironweevil
ReplyDeleteNot to be rude but do you own vendettas? If not unfortunately I can see you needing to buy some. 40k is a game where finding a unit that works as well and for as low of a point cost as the vendetta is rare. I strongly suggest at least 2.
Infantry Lascannons are great, except they're expensive and still a low BS non-TL without an order and the right target. You can added 3 heavy weapon lascannons at 105 points. A vendetta is 130, so for 25 points difference you get.
-3 TL lascannns > 3 lascannons
-A transport vehicle
a large target for contesting objectives.
The second list is better for sure. However, playing tyranids not even I would be too worried about it honestly. If the issue is that you don't want to buy, build, and paint the vendettas I really do understand. But, if you are just being stubborn and don't want to take them, I am sorry to say that will be your loss :-)
My issue with Vendettas (I own two) is that the ruling / perception that you have to move at cruising speed to bring the model on to the table. I really much prefer the on table performance of the Hellhound, given that restriction. They're also a pain to transport.
ReplyDeleteTL is better, but Bring it down can achieve that when it matters.
I think the more recent FAQs make it hard to argue any other way.
ReplyDeleteThe way Vendettas float over everything makes them very much a glass cannon vs any remotely balanced list.
I like that you're building a list with a different focus. Blasting the enemy force into bits with lascannon spam is nice but there are other (more interesting) ways to win with guard.
The only thing I don't like is the Eradicator, but I've never understood that tank. Maybe your opponents don't space their troops properly?
@Ironweevil
ReplyDeleteYou can fight taking Vendettas (like I did for a while) but nothing else works like them for the same points. Notice that GW didn't give us the Leman Russ Annihilator in the codex. Probably so as not to compete with their new undercosted model.
Moving Vendettas onto the table rarely comes up outside of Dawn of War. When nobody can see anything anyhow. Putting Vendettas in reserve is a dumb move IMO. If you're scared of losing them, just do a scout move for cover. You need those lascannons the most on turns 1 and 2.
I've not had a problem with Vendettas being too easy to kill. Quite the opposite. Their height also works both ways, letting you pop things from up high so that your target doesn't get cover.
@Sandwyrm
ReplyDeleteI'd have much preferred having that option, but we have what they give us. I've included a Vendetta enabled variant below.
HQ:
CCS: 3x Plasma, Regimental Standard, Chimera
Troops:
Infantry Platoon 1
PCS: 4x Melta, Chimera
IS: Lascannon, Meltagun
IS: Lascannon, Meltagun
SWS: 3x Flamer
SWS: 3x Flamer
Infantry Platoon 2
PCS: 4x Melta, Chimera
IS: Lascannon, Meltagun, Chimera
IS: Lascannon, Meltagun, Chimera
SWS: 3x Flamer
SWS: 3x Flamer
Infantry Platoon 3
PCS: 4x Melta, Chimera
IS: Autocannon, Meltagun, Chimera
IS: Autocannon, Meltagun, Chimera
SWS: 3x Flamer
SWS: 3x Flamer
Fast Attack:
Vendetta
Vendetta
Armored Sentinel: Multilaser
Heavy Support
LRBT: Hull Lascannon
You have a lot of melta guns, Which is great but I would suggest atleast one of those squads go into plasma. Also do you need the chimeras for the autocannons/lascannon Infantry squads? If you drop 2 of them you could get more sentinels.
ReplyDelete@Rionnay
ReplyDeleteTheir Chimeras are intended to be generously donated to the SWSs in their respective platoons on turn one. That gives me four rolling BBQ wagons. Two SWSs are Vendetta payloads.
Three budget Chimelta squads is hardly a lot of meltas in a list like this one. The CCS is packing plasma, should mass MEQs be a problem.
The basic idea is to have the Vendettas/ISs/PCSs crack transports and have the SWSs cook the contents. Once troop mobility is degraded, heavy armor is prioritized.
I see what you're saying and I agree with the SWS in the chimmys, I knew where they were going idk why I spaced it when I posted I apologize.
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean by a lost of melta is 2 melta wagons would be fine. With the addition to the list with all the lascannons the only thing I can wee you needing melta guns for are AV14 maybe 13 at most. Which there are not that many of in the game. However the plasma will allow you easier and more wounds on monstrous creatures. Kill marines, blocking feel no pain. Lastly they will give you a longer range of 24" and STR7 in case you need to shoot an AV10 vehicle and do not want to use your lascannons.
I worry the Sentinel by itself is a very easy killpoint. Could you use the points for something else? A primas psyker comes to mind :-)
The Sentinel is a fairly easy kill point, but it's a filler / tarpit unit. My other thought was to have a Mortar HWS and throw meltabombs on the Company Commander.
ReplyDelete