I've been trying hard not to look at the rumors for My beloved Sisters of battle. I know they're leaking out there, and I know Heresy Online's got some rumors stewing, and Warseer's got rumors simmering, and TastyTaste's been working on rounding up the rumors. (Which I'm glad, I don't really want to waste my time on the speculation.)
but the rumors have gotten my panties in a bunch. Some changes are rumored to be made that will change the playstyle of the army. (besides losing Inducted IG)
Currently Sisters function nicely as a Mech Infantry army. I sprinkle in some Inducted Guard for long range support, but that's not needed. The piece de resistance currently is the Immolator for transporting small units, and the Inducted IG chimera.
The Immolator has 1 firepoint (which under current WitchHunters codex allows for 1 person to fire out, if you moved up to 6") The Immo is also allowed to move 12" and still fire it's twin-linked Heavy flamer turret. (which is very nice.) It's built off the Rhino chassis, so Front and Side armors are 11.
The IG chimera... is well, the all-star IG Chimera. 5 people can fire out the top, and it packs a Multilaser turret, and a hull Heavy Flamer (mine have Hull Hflamers). Being a Chimera, it's sporting 12 Front, and 10 side armor.
These, along with the Rhino (except the WH rhino only allows 1 person to fire, unlike the SM version) provide a nice base of transports to work with. (the Immolator and Rhino are both about 15pts more expensive than their Space Marine counterparts, but Extra armor is cheap.)
so aside from the point cost uphill, you've got some dependable transports.
Then comes the faith, which is currently the only REAL advantage Sisters have over playing Space Marines (I'm looking at you specifically, Blood Angels)
Faith is currently divided up among offensive powers, and defensive powers.
Offensive (roll under or equal to squad size on 2d6) powers would be things like Divine guidance (rending shooting, or CC on a 6), Hand of the Emperor (+2 Str, Init drops to 1), The Passion (+2 init)
Defensive (roll over or equal to squad size on 2d6) powers are Light of the Emperor (makes unit Fearless, they auto regroup) and the ever popular Spirit of the Martyr (unit gains an invul save equal to it's armor save for the turn)
As SandWyrm can tell you shrewd use of the abilities can turn the tide of a game, making the Sisters turn from IG vets in power armor, into Mean Marines light.
I wanna see the next WD issue to really see how bad they're going to change Sisters. From the rumors, they're making faith unit or character specific, and no matter what size army you play (500pts or 2500pts) you still only get a d6 faith points a turn. That really makes me want to play a faith army. *cough* I suppose it's more faith overall than I have currently, but it's much harder to budget your faith. I'm a bit disappointed in the changes to the faith powers and with Shield of Faith (a 6+ invul? really?, I think I'd rather have the 5+ vs psychic attacks)
Taking the 12" move away from Immos will be bad, even if they knock it down to 55pts, and take away the firing port. moving 6" to fire the TL Hflamers? eh. I'd much rather have a rhino with a squad inside that can shoot out. Maybe they're going to push the new repressor kit that's rumored.
I get that it's a White Dwarf Band-Aid type codex, probably kinda like what the Blood Angels got in the Way-back, before they got their awesomesauce pants codex. It's not going to have all the shiny's of a real codex. I also remember how BA players moaned at their WD codex. I didn't think it was horrible. It did close some of the abusive loopholes for 5 man las/plas squads and maxing out the number of squads to get more free Death Company. IT also gave them some newer tools. Then they got their really good codex for waiting.
I'm hoping Sisters get a decent deal on the WD, and awesome new codex at the dawn of 6th.
or...
I can do what all the marine players have already figured out (with the release of Space wolves (we can do everything you can do better, and in wintergreen), and Blood angels (we like to go fast, and get FnP)) and play counts-as...
counts as using sisters?
What would that even be?
I think Blood Angels.
Sisters Sanguine.
Daughters of the red rage.
Blood angels are able to do Mech infantry with flamers and melta better than the army that's SUPPOSED to use flame and melta weapons. (and pretty much that's all sisters are ALLOWED to take, except for plasma pistols)
- St. Celestine counts as: Sanguinor. (They both have wings, and are kind of mean)
- Sisters would call it the red rage rather than the red thirst.
- Sisters vehicles would be fast then.
- Sisters could use their immolators (I mean, hflamer razorbacks). as the fast vehicles we'd like them to be.
- Sisters Sanguine Assault troops can take 2 meltaguns in a 10-strong squad (sounds familiar)
- Blood Angels show their nipples on their armor, Sisters have breasts on their armor.
- Penitent Engines would be cool Death Company Dreads with the two Blood talons
- Seraphim would be used a lot more. (an army of angels? cool)
- You could actually have MultiMeltas in your squads, but you loose Heavy Flamers (boo!)
- Sisters would get the GOOD Melta-pistols, not the 'rare' ones gotten from the bargain rack
- I would have to model a canonness as McFiston. Which would be funny. He kinda looks like he's in drag anyway, doesn't he?
oh, there are plenty of good reasons to run Sisters 'counts as' Blood angels. Think of how many Space Marine flavor of the Month players you'll piss off.
Then, you too can pick which codex you want to play out of my fellow Sisters of Battle players.
the sub-par Sisters of Battle White Dwarf? Or what you really want to play...
Sisters of Blood.
I still think it's a bit early to be packing away the sisters.
ReplyDeleteRumors (as they are) may be close enough to be dead on, but we've still yet to see a full update.
I can see how a d6 faith at 2500 is laughable, especially when you get the same at 500... but what about the rule where previously Faithful units from the current 'dex give you +1 faith per turn?
Yeah, I just started that rumor. I'm so interweb savvy. But seriously... without seeing special rules or specific unit entries, how do you know that this doesn't exist? It would completely offset the ridiculous-seeming variation of a set # per army (ish), to something that scales well and doesn't look bad at all compared to the old system, I think.
Also... if the playstyle of the army changes... it happens. If it changes so much that you don't want to play said army anymore? That really sucks... but let's not jump off the wagon saying that the army sucks because of this.
I'll have to reserve judgement until I see hard rules... but I will say that I don't think there is a single bad army out there. Say what you want, I've known Necrons to win tournaments.
Yes, there are easy-button armies. Play one if you need to. But nothing is unbeatable, or unplayable.
These aren't really rumors anymore, they are the facts, scans of the first half of the SoB WD are out on the internet and are easy to find (hell, googling "Sisters of Battle WD Codex" finds you pages) and all the things Farmpunk has alluded to are true.
ReplyDeleteIt just seems like one massive downgrade to me, that mostly steams from people not wanting to understand how faith worked and things like that. Pretty sad. I heard that Cruddace wrote the codex, so we know it will either be excellent or bad, and since he's only written one good codex for any game system (Imperial Guard) and many sub-par ones (TK, Nids etc) the last half of the codex (point values, wargear) doesn't give much hope.
I do like Sisters as BA. Seems very fitting.
ReplyDeleteI have the Aug WD with the first half of the codex. Unless the points have been reduced dramatically across the board, it looks pretty MEH. Also, the last batch from Tasty was on the nose.
ReplyDeleteI'll probably play Sisters as Sisters of Battle for fun, even if the rules are suxxors.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid it's going to be another meh codex, that will neither inspire people to play SoB, nor persuade old vets to continue with the same army.
I'm facing the music: GW wants me to buy new models. lots of expensive new models.
I'm expecting there to be the 1 or two things my army can't do without (repressor?)
I suppose overall I'm proposing BA's as a decent Counts as alternative.
and Sisters join the ranks again of neglected armies.
Which is kinda why I think the game should perhaps be broken down into 2 games:
Space Marines 40K
and:
Xenos 40K
After reading the August WD I have to say I think sisters will be pretty awesome. It's hard telling since some things are still missing such as points and weapon stats but I think they will be ok. I made my usual comment "really???" when I was reading it. More or less I think they will do very well if they don't skrew up points or options in the 2nd half.
ReplyDeleteDid you play the old SoB codex, Strung? You really should, to see what they're giving up.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking of doing the "counts as" thing too, but with Black Templars. How cool would it be to have an Ecclesiarchy Gun Cutter packed with a Penitent Engine and a bunch of angry Seraphim, though? Mmmmm...
yea red rage ad a bunch of women who could make period joke..... anyone
ReplyDeleteFirst off, it's a little early to start twisting knickers. I see the Sisters effort as more of an exercise to ensure that they (GW) get it right, not just get it done.
ReplyDeleteYou yourself even pointed out how the development path (modeled after the BA) will flow. Think of this along the lines of a software project.
1. You the project manager have to come up with something that will not only entice new users, but not alienate the existing customer base.
2. You're existing customer base is very fearful of any changes because they've become very comfortable with their product. Rushing out with a "big bang" new product will cost you as much of your old base, recognizing that in light of the current economic environment, you won't be able to pull as many new users as you'd like, so growing the customer base will take longer, perhaps require more investment, and keep you on your toes and in contact with the old users.
3. Some of the stuff you want to roll out is really snazzy, but existing groups can only handle so much change at one time. Most people prefer comfort to adventure, despite what they might tell you.
So how do you do this seemingly conflicted task?
Baby steps. Start with simple, low risk tasks that begin the socialization of the ideas. Note: I am refering to the sharing of an idea amongst stakeholders, not changing our form of government.
Why do that?
a) It starts people accepting the idea that things are going to change
b) It gives them a hint of what is in store
c) It gives you some feedback from your user community as to whether or not some things really work.
Then after seeing the new idea running for awhile, you can buy yourself some time by addressing immediate concerns, tweak the larger product to where it needs to be, and give your designers the time they need to do it right.
As you pointed out, there were all sorts of wailing and gnashing of teeth when the WD Blood Angels codex came out. Then people started looking at it and got themselves away from their emotions and just playing the list. In general, those comments seemed to hover around, "Ok" or "Not bad, but it doesn't do...".
If you can get to that point with your pilot release, I think that's a huge win. Recognize that as much as GW would love to turn everyone over to a Sisters player with the WD list, they know that isn't going to happen. The models are there to support the effort.
Probably in a year, production will line up with design and they'll start kicking out crazy good miniatures and we'll see the DE/BA phenomenom again.
I don't think it's going too far out on a limb to say that much like the GK, there were players that really wanted to play the knights, but really didn't want to do metal. I think the same is true for Sisters.
Getting Sisters right is just as important to the game (and GW) as getting the BA right.
At this point in time, I think a little patience is in order. Much like the DE/GK, I would rather them take a little longer and get it right, then rush into releasing something.
A solid codex with multiple builds will continue to draw new players. A mono-build gets you the flash in the pan, but also the inevitable attrition.
I think good things are coming.
The sisters are fine now. I've seen their updates, and they are no worse off than before (I fight against them a LOT, they will do as well or better than they did. 6+i on EVERY unit including tanks. Rending heavy bolters. FNP Repentia and free attacks when they die. Their faith points seem much more reasonable. The damage a Penitent Engine can dish out now is FAR greater than it once was...Immolater were taken down a peg, but Celestians are hell one earth.
ReplyDeleteHonestly I'm interested in seeing someone doing a Counts as Nipple wing army. Wink wink ;D
ReplyDeleteIn short:
ReplyDeleteThe WD SoB codex was thrown to delete the allies rule, and look! just in time for Soft Boys.
Of course that it sucks. It sucks on purpouse, because they want all old SoB players to get rid of their minis so when the 2013 codex comes out, they buy a sitton of new models. If I'm not wrong, this is the short version of what Honda wrote.
Hey, it worked for BA. Typical GW money-grabbing scheme.
I just blackmailed my local gaming group to ignore the WD sisters update. We'll play with Witch hunters for campaign and pick up games till a full new codex comes out.
ReplyDeleteI just won't play Sisters for tournaments anymore, I'll stick to my long standing Grey Knights and Chaos Daemon armies.
I find even the suggestion of only d6 faith points per turn, reduction of Seraphim iniative reduce to 3, and the lost of fire and move on the immolator is just to much in the style of play.