So as I continue to read the rules and re-build my list for nova........(grumble).. I feel there will be a ton of Paladin armies trying to take advantage of the new 2+ fun. I found a great tactic with the change of wording in 6th edition......
With the addition of fliers, Storm Ravens have now become better in some aspects. Harder to down in shooting, having hover mode, power of the machine spirit, and assault ramp, etc. But what we have overlooked is the
The mindstrike missile. We all know that using them to snipe out Techmarines were great because he doesn't have an involuntary save.
In 6th edition Perils of the warp now read: (Page 67)
The psyker immediately suffers 1 wound with no saves of any kind allowed.
Sniping out Independent characters that are psykers just got easier. You have a librarian, 2 mindstrike missiles and you don't. Want to really take out Draigo? His storm shield does squat now. A bunch of paladin's you ask????
Page 99 of the rule book states in reference to Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers:
A unit with this special rule counts as a Mastery level 1 psyker. The unit follows all the normal rules for psykers, with the following clarifications:
*Uses leadership of it's character or the unit....blah...blah..
*If the unit suffers the perils of the warp, or any other attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the character, if there is one (and he is alive), or against a random, non-character model in the unit, if there is no character (or he is dead).
You combine this with the Grey Knight FAQ on mindstrike missiles which states:
How do you work out whether a psyker is affected by the psyshock special rule from a mindstrike or psyk out bomb? Any psyker under the template will be affected by psyshock.
Paladins are now characters. With the perils of the warps being resolved against characters of the unit and any psyker under the template will be affected, all paladins under a template would loose 1 wound without any saves.
So bunch up those paladins for us all you Palladin band wagoners. I might just change my list back to my double storm raven list. :)
I also like the implications against hive tyrants, tervigons, eldar farseers on bikes, rune priests, etc.
Thoughts?
What are your thoughts or tactics against the paladins that have been successful?
No one will ever play it as more than one Perils per missile, and it's silly to spend 400+ points to beat one single list archetype.
ReplyDeleteI prefer to Enfeeble them (I only need to get one through Aegis, and I usually have three or four tries) and then shoot them with 48 Twin Linked Strength 6 Devourer shots and see how many 2+ armor saves they can make before they go away. Guessing they just go away.
ReplyDeleteHow can you not master slow poke? Making paladins characters has its advantages. It also now makes them more succeptable to psyshock?
ReplyDeletePurgatus, I wish blogger had a like button.
ReplyDeleteMass wounds have always worked against this sort of unit, especially since wound allocation is (maybe) more difficult (all characters means lots of "look out sir" rolls).
Then again... boneswords.
I agree, though, that the mindstrike missiles just got a severe boost. At least you can only shoot two per turn, limiting the damage output to my poor bugs.
Roundabout how much is it to upgrade those missiles? Or are they a free upgrade?
First off, I do not like the Paladin lists myself so it pains me to post this. I don't have a book around me, but using your above wording on Brotherhood of Psykers, it says "A unit with this special rule counts as **A** Mastery level 1 psykeker." I think the focus should be on the A as being singular. If all the rules quotes in your posts are word for word I would assume that a mindstrike missile would be resolved against 1 character in the Paladin unit. Since they are all characters i believe you would randomize who it has effected. Without a book by me I now wonder if you could target an IC and also touch the squad to get a little boost to the number of wounds you cause due to perils. Is the IC part of the unit when attached or a second unit for wounding purposes.
ReplyDeleteHave to admit the whole "sniping with Artillery" thing is one of the few "new" rules I really do not like... Just have bad memories of playing RT and having to shoot heavy weapons at the other guy's HW's, etc... Now, armies can place the template and at least 1/3 of the time the casualties are taken from the model of their choice... Assuming I/we are reading that correctly locally of course... Yes, Characters get the LoS! save, but heavy weapons and other special things are going to be pretty trivial to take out...
ReplyDeleteAgainst the Mindstrikes, the Eldar for the most part are not completely screwed, Farseers at least have a 3+ to avoid the Perils... Warlocks though... I guess they can hope the missile misses them... And ironically, GK are the best at taking themselves out...
Why not just play your SW's (insert Njal, and other Runepriests with their nullify psychic stuff on a 4+ (3+ for njal, isn't it?)) and then ally in a Farseer with Runes, and a squad in a Wave Serpent?
ReplyDeletesucks to be psychic.
pchappel- you don't get invuln saves from perils anymore. . .no saves at all actually
ReplyDeletePurgatus- LMAO woooow yes, I like this and it just made my day.
Farmpunk- You must of missed the whole point. He wasn't talking about stopping powers he was talking about killing GK pallys. Also, why would you ally in a farseer and a wave serprnt with njal? that's roughly 1/4 of your 2k list in 3 models. 1 of which can be instant deathed at str6, a useless vehicle (please buy over priced upgrades on it), and njal. . .no complaints just expensive. If you swap out for a rune priest you still have an obnoxiously large amount of points to do what? stop psychic powers, play against an army that doesn't need them and you're behind because of the bad eldar troops, over costed vehicles, and subpar HQ.
Moral of the story, play njal, or just play eldar. Adding to either one of those takes points away from the things you really need and has a high chance of not even being useful or coming into play.
He wasn't talking about an Invul save; Farseers have Ghost Helms, which just directly counteract Perils on a 3+.
DeleteDodger,
DeleteIs the interpretation above in the post match your understanding?
For everyone else Dodger is the Indy Open's head judge.
@pchappel: You do realize you can only "snipe" with Barrage weapons, right? Virtually all of the rest are just blast weapons that resolve as if fired from the shooting unit.
ReplyDeleteVery hard to take this post seriously. I expect stuff like this on YMDC. Epic failure.
ReplyDeleteYMDC? I prefer YMMV...
DeleteLet's also understand that Eldar runes of warding will affect battle brothers so unless you don't plan on using psychic powers I wouldn't take an eldar ally.
ReplyDelete@algesan, yes you can only snipe with barrage weapons and psybombs or mindstrikes as 'every psyker" is pretty clear.
@BBF, sorry if you don't take this serious, but Paladin's are dangerous and with the emergence of flyers, Storm Ravens need all the help they can get. And I am sure you have played an annoying Paladin list in 6th right? How about you really want to put that psychic power on the paladin's to crunch a few but the Librarian in the unit can cancel that on a 4+. Mindstrikes can make that easier. The post also asked what other tactics you might have used that have worked. Do you have anything to add?
The grammar and punctuation in this article are awful. Learn to use a paragraph break. Learn to use an ellipsis. There is no involuntary save.
ReplyDelete@ spag:
ReplyDeleteI have posted here to see how other places are interpreting the rules. I am not advocating Paladins and really have no wish to play vs that army so please don't take this post as me trying to keep my broken unit broke.
I have now looked over the rulebook and grey knight codex and still feel that only one paladin would take a perils per mindstrike missile hit on the unit. If the missile hits an Independent Character attached to the unit as well then that would be a second perils. Since wound allocation now goes to the closest model my interpretation would be that the closest character (assuming no IC wound) would take the perils. If an IC was also hit, I can see how it might be resolved against closest paladin character and the IC or 2 perils against the closest paladin, but I think this is a grey area.
Quoting the Rulebook Pg 34 under Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers
"A unit with this rule counts as a (singular) Mastery level 1 Psyker. The unit (not each model) follows all the normal rules for Psykers, with the following clarifications.
This first part of the rule seems fairly clear that even though by fluff all Grey Knights are Psykers, by rule a unit is treated as only 1 psyker.
skipping the first bullet in the clarification the second says
"If the unit suffers a Perils of the Warp, or any other attack that specifically targets Psykers, it is resolved against the character." (Imho this a poor choice of wording neglecting units of multiple characters. I feel that this is a guideline for how to resolve the wound not an endorsement that all characters hit take a wound).
Looking at the Mindstrike missile rule in the Grey Knight codex pg57 "Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects."
Since my interpretation of Brotherhood of Psykers is that the unit not the models are psykers I cannot see how more than one Perils would be taken against the unit (again assuming no IC involved).
This post is not me saying I am correct. I am just putting out my interpretation for discussion since I obviously don't feel that your interpretation of "every psyker" is not "pretty clear". Again, I mean no disrespect and want nothing more than intelligent conversation of the points that I feel I have made.
As a side note since I have never posted here before this is Joe Adams from the Bloomington, IL area. Hope that helps put a face to the nickname.
I think you're right on that Thistle. I was thinking allong the same lines this afternoon on my walk out to the car after work. (it's 1/3 mile, so I've got time to ponder stuff)
Deletegreat to hear from you!
I also have to agree (despite lacking a 1/3 mile walk). Granted I don't have the GK codex in front of me (nor do I ever) though to the best of my knowledge you're correct in that each *unit* counts as a single psyker.
DeleteErgo, using simple substitution, any UNIT of GK's hit will suffer a single Perils test, which is taken by the character (read, squad leader). If there is no squad leader, I personally would default to the closest model, as that is in line with the rules (however randomization is equally valid IMHO).
On the line of a joined IC, and "who's hit" and "how many tests"... it's not (again, IMHO) as complicated as it may seem at first glance.
The mindstrike causes a Perils test on each psyker *HIT*, not each psyker *WOUNDED*. Blast weapons cause HITS based on what the template actually touches (is over). Blast weapons (barring Barrage) cause WOUNDS based on the closest enemy model. If blast marker touches the unit and also has a psykic IC joined, then one random/closest GK takes a perils, and the IC takes a perils.
Likewise, if shooting a Tyrant and Guard unit, if the blast touches the Tyrant, he starts taking Perils wounds. If the blast only hits the Guard, then no Perils will be suffered, as no Psykers were *hit* by the blast.
So, the NOVA draft FAQ goes the way of Thistle, stating that it is randomized. I guess that when everyone is a character, no one is.
ReplyDelete