This was the cruise ship I just got back from Saturday night. It was very nice to go on a cruise but...
It is time to get my list ready for Nova with 30 days to go...
With the allied rules in place why not take them to maximize my play style?
My primary army this year will be grey knights along with everyone else. I will start with the following core:
Coteaz-The baddest dude in the 40k universe for 100 points.
10 man strike squad with justicar and halbed, 2 psycannons, rhino with dozer
3 man henchman and psybolt razorback
3 man henchman and psybolt razorback
Psyflemen Dread
Psyfelmen Dread
This is the core of my primary list and has a lot of potential to dish out medium to high strength firepower which is vital to 6th edition.
My allied option are Guard and Space Wolves
The guard options worked very well with my GK. I play tested:
Primaris Psyker
1 Vet Squad in Chimera with 3 plasma guns and sgt with plasma pistol
1 Vendetta
Marbo
The Space Wolf options also worked well but cost more leaving me less points for my Gk:
Rune Priest
8 Gh in Rhino with meltagun, power weapon, wolf banner
5 Wolf Scouts with meltagun
5 longfangs with 4 missiles
While the guard provided much needed strength 7 plasma shots combined with the primaris psyker's strength 6 shots, cracking light transports was easy. The vendetta was great to come in a also pop vehicles and other flyers. Marbo was great to isolate models with the demo charge of death. 1 game he even killed 4 pinned space marines, assaulted the other 2 killed them, then assaulted 11" to assault 4 more. The build was strong against all armies except tyranids.
The space wolf build fits more of the assault oriented player I am. Pushing up the flank or middle with the space wolves unit that is cheaper in cost than grey knights but that dish out more attacks and melta pressure. The 4+ is invaluable against other grey knight powers as cancelling fortitude is amazing. Shutting down powers is a huge plus. The priest also has living lightning and jaws to trump Nids all day long and the strength 7 to pop more vehicles and instakill toughness 3. The longfangs work well with splitfire to finish off vehicles with low hull points. Plus the scouts do give a great line breaker option. The problem here is no flyer protection.
I have filled the remainder of the points with everything from purifiers, librarian, deathcult and crusader, techmarine with psycho and rad grenades, more strikes etc. I still am not 100% satisfied with the results but need a decision this week.
What are you thoughts?
Space Wolves or Guard and why?
From my own experience, I've been trying pretty much 2 iterations of the above and filling out the last of the points with Stormravens. The ravens add a much needed AA platform while being highly capable gunships with neat tricks.
ReplyDeleteI believe the biggest asset of the Grey Knight Stormraven are Mindstrike Missiles. Automatically causing Perils of the Warp is huge, especially when Psykers will be so prevalent. Additionally, with their movemnt they can get just about anywhere to hit the soft spots on the opponents armor without exposing a weaker side like some (i.e. Vendettas).
I agree the raven is awesome. The 205 point price price tag is what I am worried about.
DeleteIt is quite an investment; however, every experience I have had has made it well worth the points. I haven't really had a raven have a hard time making its points back.
DeleteI also may be a little bias as I've been using them ever since the Codex came out and took 2 at the ATC last month.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'd have to play against, or at least see the lists in action, but my gut is to say go with the IG.
ReplyDeleteI know it's not your 'typical' style (less assault oriented) but on the front it seems to add more balance to the army, which I think will be appreciated more with the shift toward shooty being a bit more viable.
Also, it does give you something plausible vs Flyers, which is an aspect that shouldn't be completely ignored.
Although, you did say it suffered (more) vs Nids... what other than Jaws is helping against the bugs? I will say that as a Nid player Jaws doesn't scare me like it used to. Carnifexes, sure, you'll drop them easily. Tervigons have a 1/3 to pass, and now a further 1/3 to nullify the power. Hive Guard also gain a slight bonus against it, at least. Also, while Hive Guard are still dirty-good, they're not the be-all, end-all of anti-transport that they once were, so losing them is not nearly the crippling factor that it was (although getting rid of them will be helpful to you, of course).
Gotta run to work, but I'd be curious to know what else tips the Wolves in favor of IG when it comes to Nids
My 2 cents... Take SW but drop the long fangs since you've got 2 rifle dreads already. Use the extra points to take another GH squad. Add a raven for anti air capabilities. You can run one of your henchmen squads in the raven so you can drop into hover mode late game for objective/late game pressure(via raven). The IG allies add squishy bodies to a list that already has squishy bodies for 2 of your scoring units. SW will put forward and backfield pressure on your opponent which will keep pressure of your msu henchmen and they had more resilient troops. Wolf priest adds great anti psyker as you said which is the main reason to have him the other powers are just a bonus when they go off. Good luck
ReplyDeleteI wish you would use disqus or intense debate for commenting. The basic blogger comment system really really sucks.
ReplyDeleteIf you find Jaws to trump Nidz then I think you are not playing good Tyranid players. There are lots of ways to effectively mitigate Jaws.
I keep trying to talk Farmpunk into using Disqus, but he doesn't like it because he'd have to log in all the time at work or something.
DeleteI haven't read the Nova FAQ in great detail but won't the Rune Priest's Stick cancel out *your* psychic powers on a 4+ aswell as GK/SW aren't Battle Brothers?
ReplyDeleteYeah, the Runic Staff will cancel out the Psychic Powers; however, that isn't as big of a deal if you operate carefully with your army.
DeleteRegardless of whether or not it's possible to avoid, being forced to maneuver around your own army's 24" bubble isn't a positive thing.
DeleteWhile aside from the Strike Squad (and Fortitudes, but the Psyflemen would be essentially unaffected by positioning away from the Priest) nothing in there really NEEDS their Psychic Powers like a Librarian/Paladin/Purifier list would, it's still something that would limit things pretty heavily. Anything that boils down to a big fight in the middle would force you to either abandon a chunk of your army, or risk cancelling your own powers.
There's just not much reason to do it, when the Guard option gives more flexibility and a legitimate Flyer.
Hey Aaron,
ReplyDeleteYou know that I love the Rune Priest, so I'm naturally inclined that direction. He's extremely efficient for a mere 100 points.
I'm sure you've already thought through what I'm about to suggest, but maybe my repeating your thoughts out loud will help push you one way or another.
There will be fliers at Nova. Possibly many. Which list is more adept at handling those? Your IG is better here.
There will be Nids. Having play-tested more with my bugs, I'm convinced that they are really potent. Two things are particularly strong. Psychic buff and tar pits. In your mind, which list will be able to deal more effectively with those two factors? The Rune Priest is better.
I also think there will be some death stars around. I personally don't think it's a good idea to run death star units, as they aren't balanced enough for the wider game, but people will run them. You might run into them during rounds 1-3. Which list of yours will be able to more effectively deal with, say, the 2++ eldar trick, or say, 3 Carnifexes with 2 Tyranid Primes?
Also, Necrons and Grey Knights will most likely been seen in abundance among the elite players (in my opinion, anyways. Though Reecius said that he's debating whether to play Orcs [bikers] or Nids). Interesting). Which list of yours can more ably handle those two?
Lastly, which list do you want to play? Which just feels right to you?
I'd say answer those questions, tally up the votes, and go from there.
My two cents.
Spaguatyrine
ReplyDeleteI been testing IG + BA/SW and SW + IG myself. Rich wants me to try Sisters + IG/SW
You and Grace convince me to do Space Wolves then you both bail for GK + X builds? Grace was running GK+ Necrons last time I played her. Night Scythes + Invasion beams is annoying.
I like the Marbo idea with your Guard allies thats something I haven't tested. Premeasuring allows you to place him exactly 6 inches from the center of what you want to blow up with the demo charge so he is less likely to blow himself up and your opponent can not full reserve so there will be something for Marbo to blow up. That was my problem with Marbo in 5th opponent would full reserve if I went first so Marbo might show up turn 2 with nothing to blow up so would have to hide somewhere.
I would think a CCS for meltas in a chimera would be better then the Primaris since meltas is one of the weakpoints of GK unless you want to take them on BS3 henchmen.
Platoon to load up an infantry squad in a Vendetta is something I am looking at trying. You can also take more melta on the PCS and SWS teams if you want.
What power weapon type are you using for the Grey Hunters? Sword?
Dunno about the SW scouts now that you can't assault from reserves. If your single melta gun wiffs your likely getting shot to death.
Have you thought about working in an Aegis Line + Quad Gun?
The lists to beat from people I talked to or seen on blogs seem to be Demons flying circus, Grey Knight either pure or with IG or Necron allies, Necrons mixed force with wraiths + barges + some fliers. Orks either nob bikers or hordes, Tyranid Tervigon psyker spam
Answering all those with a single list seems like a tall order.
Flying Demons = GK SS Warpuqake, Fortification with Quad Gun, IG Vendetta, Necron Night Scythe. Storm Raven.
Grey Knights = Rune Priest or Farseer to block their powers.
Necrons = need to deal with fliers. Fortification with Quad Gun, IG VEndetta, necron Night Scythe, Storm Raven.
Ork bikers = Rune Priest for Jaws, Strength 10 Manticore, Demolisher, Vindicator. Mephiston.
Ork hordes = Manticore, lots of fire power and flamers.
Tyranids tervigons = rune priest w jaws (not quite as good as last edition with the deny the witch but better then doing 6 wounds), eldar farseer, raven with mindstrikes, lots of missles/las cannons.
Unholy_Martyr
Dunno if the Raven is worth 205 when you can get an allied Vendetta for 130. Mindstrikes are good but situational and you can't unload all 4 in one turn anymore. Getting your 205 point raven blown away by a Quad gun with some BS5 dude like Uriah on it would sting.
Austin Brown
Dunno how well the Eldar 2+ trick works as its stuffed if your opponent has a farseer or rune priest to block your fortune. Eldar troops also suck. Carnifexs are Jaws bait.
Kirika
Warpuqake sounds like something you'd only see in Japan, and wouldn't want to see in the first place.
DeleteOtherwise, Warpquake isn't going to bother anyone playing a Daemon FMC list. It's going to bother Daemons less in general now that Bloodcrushers are garbage, and it didn't exactly bother us much in the first place. Warpquake protects you from Drop Pods and Blood Angels, not Daemons.
At this stage, I feel people are still confusing "survivability" with "competitiveness" when it comes to Daemon FMC spam lists (and most Flyer lists, for that matter). If you get tunnel vision and spend all game trying to kill the five dudes floating around the board, yes, you'll absolutely lose. But the ability of most FMCs (and/or Flyers) to actually affect the game in a meaningful way is pretty damn low, and people aren't yet adjusting for that--they're stuck in "SHOOT IT TIL IT DIES" mode. A Flying Tzeentch Prince is just going to float around and use Breath and Vector Strike to kill a couple dudes each turn, and as soon as it lands (or gets Grounded) you can tarpit it for multiple turns with just about anything.
It's pretty damn hard for those Princes to ever carry their weight in terms of what they cost, aside from instilling people with an irrational urge to over-commit resources to deal with them like they currently are. The hit-and-run nature of the list just doesn't provide the protection the flimsy Daemon troop choices need, which they traditionally got by holding the middle of the board with Crushers or hordes of Fiends.
That said, the Screamers are coming. Those things should be the poster child for any and all future conspiracy theories as to GW changing rules to fuel model sales; it seems like most people haven't even noticed how scary they're going to be.
Add the speed of a Fiend to the offensive capability of a Bloodcrusher--while costing less than either--then give it 2d6 armour pen and the ability to Turbo-Boost. That's what Screamers have become.
Warpquake does make the demon player deepstrike farther back which may give an extra turn of firing at demons.
DeleteFriend is testing flying circus with flamers and screamers that looks just nasty other then the troops are a little lacking.
Ignoring the flying princes and killing off the troops is probably the strategy of choice when dealing with flying circus but princes can contest and count for table corners.
Kirika
Did Nova finalize how they doing table corners? If its scoring infantry only the 3 henchmen units aren't very good.
ReplyDeleteKirika,
ReplyDeleteOh, yes, I agree. A farseer or rune priest helps block fortune, and Carnifexes are jaws bait. But I guess that just places a check next to Rune Priest, doesn't it? That's what Aaron's trying to determine.
I really want the rune priest, but the 4+ cancel my own powers. Will be a distraction and will affect my flow of my strategy.
ReplyDeleteWhat about going with Space Wolves + Imperial Guard instead?
DeleteHQ
Rune Priest w Jaws + Living Lightning 100 pts
Elite
Wolfguard pack 155 points
1 wolfguard terminator w cyclone (splits out to join grey hunters on foot)
4 wolfguard with combi melta (splits off the join grey hunters in rhino
1 wolfguard w no upgrades (splits off to join the long fang pack that
sits on the quad gun)
Troops
5 Grey Hunters w Melta gun in Rhino w Dozer Blade 120 pts
Wolf Guard w combi melta joins
Rune Priest can join or goes with long fangs depending on if I need
the runic weapon bubble to advance.
5 Grey Hunters w Melta gun in Rhino w Dozer Blade 120 pts
Wolf Guard w combi melta joins
5 Grey Hunters w Melta gun in Rhino w Dozer Blade 120 pts
Wolf Guard w combi melta joins
5 Grey Hunters w Melta gun in Rhino w Dozer Blade 120 pts
Wolf Guard w combi melta joins
5 Grey Hunters w Flamer in Las/TL Plas Razor 150 pts
5 Grey Hunters w Flamer 75 points
Wolf Guard terminator w cyclone joins
Heavy Support
6 Long Fangs w 5 Missles 140
6 Long Fangs w 4 Missles 115
5 Long Fangs w 4 Missles 115
fortification
Aegis Line w Quad Gun 100 pts.
Guard Allies
HQ
CCS w 3 Melta Gun in Chimera HHF 135 pts
Troop
Infantry Platoon
PCS 3 Melta Gun in Chimera HHF 115
Infantry Squad w Auto cannon in Chimera HHF 115
Infantry Squad flamer 55
Goes in Vendetta
Fast
Vendetta 130
1998
Might cut something for Marbo. He was pretty decent in 5th except for the all reserve but now that isn't legal.
Kirika
HQ
DeleteRune Priest w Jaws + Living Lightning 100 pts
Elite
Wolfguard pack 155 points
1 wolfguard terminator w cyclone (splits out to join grey hunters on foot)
4 wolfguard with combi melta (splits off the join grey hunters in rhino
1 wolfguard w no upgrades (splits off to join the long fang pack that
sits on the quad gun)
Troops
7 Grey Hunters w Melta gun, wolf banner in Rhino w Dozer Blade 165 pts
Wolf Guard w combi melta joins
Rune Priest can join or goes with long fangs depending on if I need
the runic weapon bubble to advance.
7 Grey Hunters w Melta gun in Rhino w Dozer Blade 165 pts
Wolf Guard w combi melta joins
7 Grey Hunters w Melta gun in Rhino w Dozer Blade 165 pts
Wolf Guard w combi melta joins
6 Grey Hunters w Melta gun in Rhino w Dozer Blade 150 pts
Wolf Guard w combi melta joins
5 Grey Hunters w Flamer in Las/TL Plas Razor 150 pts
5 Grey Hunters w Flamer 75 points
Wolf Guard terminator w cyclone joins
Heavy Support
5 Long Fangs w 4 Missles 115
5 Long Fangs w 4 Missles 115
5 Long Fangs w 4 Missles 115
fortification
Aegis Line w Quad Gun 100 pts.
Guard Allies
HQ
Primaris Psyker 70
Elite
Marbo 65
Troop
Veterans 3 plasma chimera HHF 170
Fast
Vendetta 130
1998
This is probably more your style with larger GH squads w banner and your guard ally contingent minus the plasma pistol. I don't like plasma pistol on single wound leader models. Overheating and losing your LD 8 sarge is bad.
I want to use my grey knights as they look really nice. I also am worried about 3 tervigon lists without space wolves but have a plan to deal with them anyways.
ReplyDelete