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| The new Coteaz |
So we ended up with dawn of war and 4 objectives. I was trying out a more mechanized BA list, which would prove to be my down fall. Pretty much he took one turn getting guys in place, and then opened up with 39 lascannons each turn. Sure they are Bs3, but that still a lot of shots. Even with first turn and turbo boosting my storm raven went down in the first volley. Next to fall was my three typhoons and then Land raider. I never got into multi-melta range, it was all Lascannons. My razor backs got immobilized on one side of the board and took pot shots. My Baal predator was taking out a squad a turn, but there were just so many squads.
I only had about 6 long range units, to his 13, I couldn't engage them all. A 10 man assault squad running the gauntlet could easily multi-assault and tie up and/or wipe multiple squads. A good hybrid list should be able to deal with them fine, but pure mech could have some trouble. Their 5++ is more annoying than you'd think.
Even if you can't take unlimited number of squads (which is how I see it), you can still take 9 of them and then some support. oh, and their upgrade table is more annoying and time consuming than anything else. With a +2 each time, more often there was nothing happening. They either got 5++ or +1 Sv, neither of which helped. One squad managed to get rending. YAY rending multi-melta and lascannons.
It is an interesting gimmick list, but I see the Joks as being good support units, but not the core of an army.
Let me get my Space wolves to there side of the board and see if they have fun playing that list again.
ReplyDeleteI know, my tyranids or my normal Jumpers BA list would have done fine. Of course I would be testing my mech list that day.
ReplyDeleteJust from (addled) memory, but I think the Coteaz entry does say Henchman are scoring and the "1 Inq, 1 squad" limit does not apply. Add that to the Henchman entry that says clearly 'does not take up a FOC slot' and I can see where his list is legal(?). That said, does the Coteaz entry say Henchman are scoring, or does it say they are troops? That wording could be all the difference...
ReplyDeleteIt says they are Troop choices.
ReplyDeleteIt requires you to piece together bits of both sets of rules to arrive at the conclusion that you can purchase infinite, non-FOC Henchmen with Coteaz. It's an incredibly optimistic interpretation by people who want to play with 80 monkeys.
Nobody's actually going to let anyone play that way, in the end.
Yeah definitelyi do not recommend buying 80 monkeys. Theres an inevitable faq looming to clarify how many can be legally taken and the common sense (RAI) side of me says it wont be unlimited.
ReplyDeleteOK, I have read over the codex to see this list for myself. Here is what I have come up with. Yes if you take Coteaz than yes the monkeys are troops, they are not limited by to the number of inquistors and they take up no FOC as per the henchmen entry. Now the cacthes are there is no restriction on the monkeys per unit aside from the 3-12. In addition to follow suit with other rulings since they do not use up an FOC and are not compulsory units than they cannot count towards the 2 troop minimum as these spots are not used up on the FOC Chart. That would be my ruling on it. That kind of brings down the number of monkeys but in general yes a bunch of monkeys is legal so after taking your 2 compulsory units and Coteaz you could still field 11 units of 3. Lets just hope GW FAQs this one to say something along the lines of if taken as troops they do use up an FOC but even then I havn't seen anything that says you can't field 12 per squad.
ReplyDeleteCoteaz makes Henchman warbands count as Troops, thereby limiting them to 6, while simultaneously removing the previous henchman warband note that says they are limited by the # of inquisitors in your army.
ReplyDeleteNormally, without Coteaz, you can get one 'counts as elites but doesn't count against your limit of elites' henchman warband PER INQUISITOR, limiting you to 3. So your friend (I know who you're talking about) is simply wrong. FAQ should put it in easier to understand terms.
In order to really kill his idea of a list they would need to make henchmen when taken as troops use up an FOC slot and limit the number of Killer Apes you can take per unit of henchmen. Otherwise points alloted he could still field 72 of them in army using a standard FOC.
ReplyDeleteIf only they weren't 35 points of meh.
ReplyDeleteCoteaz says "inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands are troops choices... and are not limited by the number of inquisitors in the army" I don't know if I would say that negates the fact they don't use up an FOC slot. Lesser Daemons for instance are a troops choice but do not use up an FOC. Like I said though he could still take 6 units of 12 if you say they use up an FOC.
ReplyDeleteNow you could make this army stupid by taking 2-4 squads of them and protecting them with GK's. Lets imagine 4 units in Chimeras. with 5 each and 2 units of 10 GK's with 2 psycannons in rhinos led by coteaz and a librarian or master. That's pretty rough. More than enough anti-mech and the GK's would make an impressive counter assault unit. That's still 20 Las-cannon shots a turn, 14 multi-laser shots, up to 16 psycannon shots and if you took heavy bolters on the chimeras 12 more shots.
ReplyDeleteThe way it stands now, as the codex has not been FAQ'd, it is more than a legal list. It says that the Henchmen become troops choices, so they are troops choices, and it says that they don't use FOC. So the list is fine. I don't see to many people playing it, so there shouldn't be to big of an FAQ on that whole ordeal. I am more worried about running into 60 purifiers, and 24 psycannons. That seems more scary to me than BS3 Lascannons.
ReplyDeleteAlso take into account that I have a 2+/3++, and fleet with infiltrate on my army list. So I'll crush out two squads hopefully first turn.
ReplyDeleteI've not read the entries but I'm assuming the rules for henchmen are similar to marine command squads:"You may take 1 X in your amry per y, this choice does not take up a Z spot"
ReplyDeleteNow if Z says elite spot and you take Coteaz; who cares if they don't take up any elite spots? It's the fact that they are now taking up troop spots that matters.
If Z says any FOC spot, then I would argue that Coteaz's rule supersedes the whole sentence. The clause that says that they do not take up a FOC spot is dependent on the clause that says you need one inquisitor. If you supersede the first clause, you loose the second.
Even under the most restrictive reading, 6 squads of 5 monkeys in chimeras is pretty mean.I don't have my codex yet, so I don't have firm points on anything or final rules.It's an interesting exercise.I still say that fast assault should wreck this type of list.
ReplyDeleteSo I was looking over the codex again. After reading the entry for Henchmen I could see a valid point being made that with coteaz then henchmen do become troops and will use up an FOC. Thanks goes to Caulyn Darr for making me go back and read it.
ReplyDeleteThe entry says for henchmen that "for each inquisotor you may take a henchmen warband"... "This unit does not use up a force org slot". Its kind of in the wording. "This" implies a unit purchased in the specified way as in 1 per inquisitor. If it simply stated Henchmen don't use up an FOC slot than that would be a different story. So I would agree then that if taken in an army with coteaz they are a troops choice and will take up an FOC they would the also count as one of your 2 required troops. Coteaz simply says henchman warbands are a troops choice in army that includes coteaz and are not limited by the number of inquisitors. It does not say may be taken as troop choice it says they are. So I would say taking additional units as an elites choice is a no go either.
So to our monkey friend you may field up to 72 of them but only a max of 6 squads. That is still a lot of fire power though.
Oh and in regards to fast assault only if in power armor. The monkeys have choice of Multi-Melta, Lascannon, Heavy Flamer and they choose when they fire. So 6 squads of 5 heavy flamers will still wreck most non MEQ assault armies and even for marines thats a lot of heat coming from heavy flamers. I would fight this list but I could also see this being a solid core for a very competetive army.
ReplyDeleteI think the Coteaz henchmen are going to use up a troops slot.
ReplyDeleteIt's going to be FAQ'd. I'm betting they didn't bet on people going all silly with unlimited henchmen squads.
If you really wanted to go over the top, you could take 3 guardsmen in a squad @ 12pts a squad, then spam 100+ units of 3. good luck doing anything with 345+ guardsmen with pistols/ccw's. Then again, good luck killing them all too.
I also think that you could max out at 8 henchmen squads. 6 in troops, and 2attached to HQ Inquisitors (Coteaz, and Inquuisitor to be named Later)
ReplyDeleteHenchmen are probably the most flexible unit in the game currently, and have an amazing amount of options.
I think that if coteaz is taken then you can no longer take henchmen as elites. Becuase it says they are troops. Not to worried about it though. However think about putting 7 crusaders in a chimera with 5 monkeys. Thats 7 storm shields and power weapons to protect them. Now throw in an additionl inquisitor and give him hammerhand, 2x Super Monkers AKA Dreadknights and a culexus and you have a 2500 point force that I think can withstand an assault and still hammer out an intense amount of fire. The more I think about it the more I can't wait to see someone field it. It could be a really fun challenge to overcome. If you put them in Rhinos your assasin would be crazy could you imagine 12 S5 AP1 shots at BS8 a turn.
ReplyDeleteI like the Coteaz list concept. It would allow me to make use of a lot of my IG model stock. That said, I'm not sure that I'd play a list like that in a competitive environment.The point spread is much less efficient than my normal IG stuff.
ReplyDelete