So with the Grey Knights coming, everyone is getting excited about the new Paladin Terminators. Who doesn't like 2W Terminators with Feel No Pain? Well me, for one.
I won't dispute their impressive ability to kill things in close combat or put S5 bolter rounds into enemies at range. No, the problem isn't their offensive capability, it's their survivability. Wounds and FNP aside, they are standard Terminators, with new close combat toys. None of which include Storm Shields. Which means that they only have a 5+ Invulnerable save (4+ in close combat).
So Meltas, Demolisher Cannons, Medusas, Manticores, Broadsides, and Thunder-Hammers will still insta-kill them 66% of the time. There's a reason you don't see vanilla Terminators on the field anymore during this age of melta.
So why should I pay a Chimera each for these guys if they're just as dead dropping into a Guard or Tau gunline as Ultramarine Terminators are? Fact is, Thunder-Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators will clean their clocks for fewer points.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw this. Those termies will kill things they hit, especially if they have a librarian with them for Might of Titan, but unless they're using cover (and Shrouding) they won't last long to S8 AP 1/2 shots. Small arms will bounce off them, especially if they have an apothecary, but if you can instant kill them they're a huge points sink.
ReplyDeleteComparing what one army gets with another isn't the right way to be doing things IMO.
ReplyDeleteI enjoy the fact that C:SM does the TH/SS shtick better than everyone else, it says to me that GW gives a slight fuck about how even after 3 years, the C:SM book still does some things better than the newer books do. I think this is good game design.
However, with all the rumors talking about how Jervis etc nerfed the GK codex right before the release we'll never know what exactly was intended, but I assume Jervis's meddling whenever I read a rule and think this:
"Holy sh-....Oh, ok"
The book just came out, has anyone actually played any lists or tried anything out yet? I think it is a little too early to start talking about what sucks and what is good, hell its still probably too early to talk much about Dark Eldar stuff too.
GK are not the new IG/SW, anyone looking for that in the GK codex or following codices will be disappointed. Not disappointed that the codex doesn't have substantial fluff, cool rules, or exciting units but disappointed that its not the lol-my-codex-is-better-than-yours feel that the IG/SW codices exude. GK are more like BA and Dark Eldar, although better than Nids of course lol.
Oh ya, Paladins. They look fun. You can run them as a hammer unit but honestly I would rather take things that can be min-maxed to hold my Psycannons lol. It's still a group of terminators that will beat most non-MEQs in assault (and still hold up well against most MEQs). They just don't seem to follow the tried and true MEQ formula of "DERP RUSH FORWARD AND RAPE ENEMY HURRR" that the Thunderwolves etc showcase. Tactics with my power armor, who'd uh thunk it lol.
Holy tactics, Batman, a marine unit that requires tactics to use appropriately!!!
ReplyDelete*cough*
To compare, Shrikes drop to any S8 ap4 baddy you can throw at them (most notably missiles), but they're still generally worth the hefty 50-ish point price tag.
"Needing cover" in this edition is nearly the same as "needing a board to play on". You almost have to try to give your opponent a clear shot on a unit. Almost.
Yeah, Melta will hurt. But not much else will, and again Melta is also what hurts your dreads, Storm Ravens, and whatever else you decide to put on the board other than this one single unit.
Not saying it's not a weakness, but ways of mitigating it are fairly easy to come by.
Paladins in a Land Raider or Storm Raven are the best course of action. You need to get there first. I can see them in higher point games, but not at 1500 or even 1750.
ReplyDelete@foodie, We space marine players do use tactics sometimes. :)
I agree Sandwyrm. I actually thought they were awesome-sauce for the first five minutes after reading the codex, but the moment I tried to make a viable build and ended up spending around 400pts for them (and then having to find a suitable transport for them) made me realize they were an over-glorified point sink that had reduced survivability outside of whatever transport I chose for them (as an aside it was a Storm Raven with MM, AC, Hurricanes, and Psybolt Ammo for extra fun).
ReplyDeleteNeedless to say 2+/5+ with FNP for that cost and the cost of the upgrades isn't worth it when they can still be splatted by units like TH wielding Thunderwolves
I wasn't super wowed by them. If the Paladins could take Ward Staves or Storm shields, they'd be as lot better.
ReplyDeleteas is, they're an expensive unit you should take if you want to play KP denial. Then get Draigo, and 2 squads for your whole 1500pt army.
They're too many points for what kind of damage they can throw around on the battlefield. If I want termies, I'll get normal GK termies probably. I don't think I need 2W FNP termies. Maybe at 2500pts in 'ard Boyz. then again, you've got a lot better choices, even at 2500pts.
I think the real cream of this codex is the purifier, with a GK strike team coming in as great utility. Henchmen are needed for melta goodness.
I'll be honest, terminators are one of the weaknesses of my list. I've changed things up to try and counter that, but it only goes so far. FNP doesn't bother me as much as W2.
ReplyDeleteI have to sacrifice a 10 man assault squad in order to kill them half of the time.
With everyone on the internet throwing a fit about Grey Knights being hugely over powered, it's nice to see how the codex is much more balanced than it initially appeared.
ReplyDeleteI think that I would classify the paladins in the POS category. With the ready number of lascannons, krak missiles, meltas and demolisher cannons floating around, I find that paying the premium for the 2nd wound is not cost effective. I think that Inq warbands GK strike squads offer more flexibility for a better price point.
ReplyDeleteSo, I have the infomration on the codex pages and have come up with a decent 1300 of a 1500 point list. Here goes:
ReplyDeleteLibrarian with Halberd and: 180 pts
Quicksilver, Might, Warp Rift, Shrounding, and maybe Vortex.
5 Grey Knights-160 pts x 2
1 Psycannon
1 Halberd
2 Swords
1 Justicar with Halberd
Rhino
5 Terminators- 265 pts
1 Psycannon and Halberd
1 Hammer
1 Warding Stave
1 Sword
Justicar with Halberd
Psybolt Ammo
Purifier Squad- 162 pts
4 incinerators
Knight Halberd
Rhino
Storm Raven - 205 pts
MMelta and TL Assault Cannon
Nemesis Dreadnight - 195 pts
Great Sword
Gatling Psilencer
200 more points to deal with.
Thoughts?
75 points makes the dreadnight jump infantry. totally worth it!
ReplyDeleteToo much. He can deepstrike anyways, why make him teleport. I am thinking a teleport homer for the Librarian, drop and shoot 12 shots with Psilencer.
ReplyDeleteThe dreadnight can also take a second heavy incinerator (Hell hound flamer) for 30 points.
I just can't wait to play against these guys in a tourney. I honestly don't care what bells and whistles they get I'm ready to bring the pain to them.
ReplyDeleteI am still waiting for your pain with my Space Wolves!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat about next Tuesday?
ReplyDeleteit's like anything...if you're shooting all the high powered stuff at some termies, what are you NOT shooting anti-tank stuff at?
ReplyDeleteAs a Mech Guard player, my most high-powered killing happens at 0-12" from meltas and plasmas. So I don't lose any long-range fire from concentrating on killing a unit of 5++ Termies.
ReplyDeleteIf these guys deep-strike into my backfield, they're dead. They'll last slightly longer than a unit of normal Termies would, but a Demolisher round + meltas/plasmas should see them off. I'll just have to use 3 units to kill them instead of 2.
If someone runs their Paladins forward, supported by other units, they'll do better, but I still think the 1W Termies are a better buy. Or you'll spend even more points on Libbies and gear to keep them alive. Diluting the rest of your force.
I dunno Spag, I'm contemplating the StormRaven using TLAssCannon, TLHbolter w/Psybolt ammo.
ReplyDelete4 S7rending, with 3 S6shots sounds mean to me.
The missiles should be used to kill off the psykers, and perhaps use the DK to haul a Dread around for the psyker dampening abilities.
I'm liking the idea of a FA stormraven being the GK version of a Vendetta though. Esp. when backed up by a Psyfleman dread or two.
I get my first real look at the 'dex tonight. Not sure if I'll play a force using it, or sit and soak it up.
I'm a huge fan of the Paladins...but that doesn't mean that I am going to buy 50 of them and throw them on the table either. I'm running my Grey Knights the way that I think that they should be ran. And may the emperor help you if you come within range of my psycannons. with 16 psycannons, 3 heavy psilencer's and crowe to back them up, I feel sorry for anyone who get to close to try to get within that 12" are to get to my lines with melta or shrikes...36 S7 AP4 kiss my ass shots plus the rest of the psybolters! Eat it...you die in a torrent of fire!
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