Since we're talking about Descent-Of-Angels armies lately, I might as well chime in with my future plans for making the Emo-Wing more competitive vs. MSU armies.
As many of the old timers may recall, my other Army is a Blood Angel Sanguinary Guard DOA army that I have dubbed the Emo-Wing. Here's the list that I typically run at 2000 points:
HQ
225 Dante
250 Mephiston
Elites
75 Sanguinary Priest w/Jump Pack, Power Weapon
90 Sanguinary Priest w/Jump Pack
Troops
230 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
230 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
230 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
230 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
230 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Fast Attack
70 LandSpeeder w/Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta
70 LandSpeeder w/Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta
70 LandSpeeder w/Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta
Total: 2000 points
As I've said before, I think the Emo-Wing is about 80-90% as competitive as my Imperial Guard. This list just rapes Mech Eldar and pretty much any Elite build out there. The only armies I can't handle are MSU (Multiple Small Unit) forces like Mech Guard, Witchunters, and Space Wolves. Those armies pack lots of meltas in metal boxes that will really punish me if my own melta pistols whiff during the shooting phase. That forces me to kill the tank in assault and just stand there while the meltas inside get out and insta-gib half of my squad. Not good.
So... what to do...
Well, the obvious answer is that I need more long range anti-tank fire in the list. That way if my melta pistols whiff I still have the means to pop a tank before I assault the guys inside. But what to bring? Rifleman Dreds, Predators, and Devastator Squads are slow and don't really fit the theme of my army; which relies on speed and the ability to simply jump over intervening terrain when pursuing a foe. I also need my vehicles to be able to block routes of advance so that I can control how much of the enemy force can be brought to bear on me at any one time.
That leaves speeders. I'm already using 3 Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer speeders, which work great. So let's add one more of those and 2 Speeders with Typhoon Launchers and Heavy Bolters to pick targets off from afar.
To get the points, I'll drop Mephiston. I love the guy, but he's the least reliable part of the current list, as he relies on Psychic powers to keep up with the rest of jump troops. Plus he can be shut down by a Psychic Hood. That gives me 250 points to spare. If I also drop 3 of the Fists from the SangGuard squads, I can take a Chapter banner to give every model in Dante's squad an extra attack.
That results in the following list:
HQ
225 Dante
Elites
90 Sanguinary Priest w/Jump Pack, Power Weapon
75 Sanguinary Priest w/Jump Pack
Troops
250 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol, Chapter Banner
220 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol
220 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol
230 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol, Power Fist
230 Sanguinary Guard Squad w/2 x Infernus Pistol, Power Fist
Fast Attack
140 2 x Land Speeder w/Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta
140 2 x Land Speeder w/Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta
180 2 x Land Speeder w/Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher
Total: 2000 Points
That should give me the long range anti-tank that I need to be sure I can open boxes. I've been on the receiving end of Typhoons enough to really respect their anti-armor and anti-troop abilities. I'm not saying that this list be uber vs. Guard or anything. But I should at least have a fighting chance. Maybe I'll get up to 90-95% as competitive as my Guard. That would make me happy. :)
The models are all bought, I just need to find the time to assemble everything.
Have you considered a couple of missile teams? 130 Points would give you 5 devastators with 4 missile launchers. Dumping Mephiston and a single powerfist would give you exactly enough points for 2 such units, and Dante could easily ride in the unit that's all attacking at initiative, for a bit of extra fast punchy.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your using the speeders with this list. I am looking forward to testing it against my Wolves first and my Knights second.
ReplyDeleteYeah watchwood he said it goes against the theme, which I agree with. Speeders are the only heavy weapon platform which fits with a deepstrike army. They're a lot like vehicle jump troops.
ReplyDeleteI think this loadout looks really awesome. Mephiston is great but he's also predictable and he can be countered in very specific ways.
Being unable to deepstrike him can leave him twisting in the wind since he totally lacks long ranged firepower. The typhoons are a great option. I've had a vet squad totally splattered by four frag missile shots. On a fast platform like a speeder they are really nasty weapons and you can go twelve and fire both shots which I really like.
What about a regular Librarian with Blood Lance and Shield? He'd provide a decent amount of utility and anti-vehicle firepower - hood dependent, of course, but still - and he can have a regular jump pack and DoA with everyone else.
ReplyDeleteLibrarians are cool, but I don't really need more close-range firepower. Let alone firepower that's susceptible to Hoods, snake-eyes, and boxcars. :)
ReplyDeleteAnd like I said in the article, Dev squads don't let me block armor from moving or move 12" laterally to deny cover saves.
This battle report usually convinces people of how great speeders are:
http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2010/08/battle-result-emo-wing-vs-wolves.html
Sandwyrm, why landspeeders over attack bikes? Thanks!
ReplyDeleteJust for reference, Grey Knights aren't going to actually stop everyone from playing Daemons.
ReplyDeleteSang Guard armies are practically auto-lose against Daemons, who don't care about Power Weapons or 2+ Armor.
One of those units of Sang Guard getting a Furious Charge on Bloodcrushers results in zero dead Bloodcrushers and the Sang Guard being wiped. Not to mention, any time you Assault, even if you win, whatever you Assaulted with is almost certainly going to die next turn.
In most places this wouldn't be an issue, but it's not like we have a shortage of Daemon players.
@Oz
ReplyDeleteA few reasons:
1) Bikes can't block vehicle movement or LOS as effectively as speeders. Plus speeders get a 3+ save vs. any ram attempt.
2) Speeders move where they like. Just like Jump troops. They can also deep-strike.
3) Bikes don't have duality. Besides a Multi-Melta, I've got heavy flamers that fry light infantry very nicely. The Typhoons are also murder on hordes in addition to enemy armor.
4) If I move 12", you need 6's to hit me in combat.
I never said that GKs would be the end of Daemons. Any detailed look at the new codex will show that GW actually balanced things rather well so that Daemons wouldn't be auto-hosed.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I don't think SangGuard are as easy a matchup for Daemons as you seem to think they are. You're forgetting that bloodcrushers don't have anywhere near as much mobility as jump troops do. If I want to put 15 feather-boys and a priest on your unit in a given turn, I can. That's an average of 5 unsaved wounds from meltas and storm bolters before I assault, plus 9 more unsaved wounds in close combat before you get to strike back. I'll take those odds
More likely though, I'll just jump around and kill everything else on the board and take or contest all of your objectives while I whittle down the bloodcrushers with my speeders' AT fire.
Sandwyrm, thanks for the response!
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking about using attack bikes alongside devastators in my standard JP blood angels list, so I guess my requirements are slightly different.
1. ABs with multimeltas get a free melta shot against the tank if it tries to ram though, which is nice (and scary for your opponent). For sheer blocking though, you're right.
2. Agreed.
3. Are you kidding? ABs have a T/L bolter! . I'm less worried about hordes than you, though, I think, because of my assault marines and devastator frag missiles. PS. I'm only really comparing MM ABs and MM speeders, typhoons are a different kettle of fish.
4. This is a big one, as the ABs are also tasked with shooting up assault dudes (e.g. assault terminators) that my assault marines can't deal with. Still, I can move 12" and shoot at 24", so maybe I'm OK?
cheers!
I find your take on Sanguinary Guard armies interesting, but I hate speeders! That aside, do typhoons really lend themselves to blocking? I feel like their roll is to stay back and shoot at range more than it is to move forward and block. Granted that can be a last ditch option. Do you think a mix of devestators and speeders might work? What about only taking melta/flamer speeders?
ReplyDeleteSandWyrm: which squad do you run the sang w/ power weapon with? Do you have another article detailing it?
ReplyDeleteDo you run dante/ banner squad/ pw priest for a superdedooper unit?
Keep us updated on this! Im starting a sang guard force as well. Similar boat to the one you're in, save that my go to tournament army is Wolves.
ReplyDelete@Dave
ReplyDeleteAny speeder can block. But obviously that's not the primary role of the Typhoons. :)
@Nicole
The SangPriest w/PW goes in Dante's squad. Which is the one with the banner.
@Behemoth
I've had one test game since writing this. It was against Daemons and I got slaughtered. Chalk it up to a good opponent + bad matchup + bad deployment + not remembering that Flamers of Tzeentch ignore armor saves.
I'll know better next time. :)
how do you plan on changing this to match up against GK?
ReplyDeleteWeve got a lot of problems with some of the matchups. The inclusion of a librarian is more important than ever.