One of the first things that you learn as an Imperial Guard player is that infantry missile launchers are overcosted. At 15 points, a missile launcher is 50% more expensive than an autocannon; yet it's about 30% less likely to take out a vehicle. To my mind, missile launchers should cost the same as an autocannon. With the difference in penetrating power offset by it's ability to shoot frag blasts when needed.
But then I got to thinking... What sort of overall 40K rules change would make missile launchers worth that extra 5 points; while also making them work more like their real-world counterparts: The Bazooka or RPG? Meaning a light anti-tank weapon that's highly portable.
How about a dual fire mode, like the GK psycannon?
At 25" to 48", it's a one shot heavy weapon.
At 0" - 24", it's still a one shot weapon. But is now classed as assault. Like the grenade launcher.
With that small change, I'd be pulling the models off my shelf and taking them all over the place.
What do you guys think? I'm not talking just about the Guard here, I'm talking about a BRB change that would affect all armies.
you know i actually like that idea. i think that could give an army a lot more versatility and possibly work towards more footslogging armies that would make them more viable. however at the same time, you could have a large amount of spam with them.
ReplyDeletehow would one army be able to take it over another? would the point cost be the same for every army or would it be different.
i also like the idea of missile launcher d3 hits loota upgrades. that could also be some fun, imagine moving them forward instead of always relying on hugging cover in one area.
good post. :)
I would just change the rule in the BRB and let it apply to all armies. Individual FAQs could clear up questions and adjust costs if needed.
ReplyDeleteThat is a fantastic idea for a house rule! Maybe I'll try it out this weekend to see how it works on the tabletop.
ReplyDeleteMaybe make it a standard weapon up to 24", not assault.
ReplyDeletelet it move and shoot 24", but not assault.
so what you're really saying is that you want chimeras loaded with these guys to be insanely powerful?
ReplyDelete24" isn't a short range in this game. against most opponents, that 24" limitation will matter in one of 6 turns. basically you're just turning it into an uber-grenade launcher.
while i agree that guard pay a premium for missiles, most other armies with the same weapon don't. (except eldar, but theirs is better anyway).
given that static missile launchers are most commonly found in marine supporting units (devs, long fangs, tactical support teams) at already super-cheap prices (0-15 points), i think this would result in a gross overcompensation. a 5 point drop in the one listing where they are overpriced (guard) would probably be much better overall.
Yeah, this looks great if you look at it in the limited scope of Imperial Guard.
ReplyDeleteAnd then it looks awful if you look at it from the game as a whole.
"You know what needs a huge buff? Long Fangs!"
nnnnnnnnnnnope.
@e66094ea-3333-11e0-9e8a-000bcdcb8a73
ReplyDeletelol. Exactly.
Unless of course by 'one shot' he means 'one use'
and then still:
nnnnnnnnope.
good points. I don't think Devs OR Long fangs need MORE help to be better.
ReplyDeleteI also agree a 30" effective range 24"+6" move is decent shooting range.
Maybe if it moves, It fires 12", or 18". then you could make it assault, like the Ork Rokkit.
Overall, I think I agree with Steve on this, It's probably best handled by having the IG price adjusted to 10pts. I'd like 'em a lot more then.
Its a really cool idea, for that matter why can't 40k missiles lock or heat seek like missiles we use today.
ReplyDeleteHowever within the rules in general I think missile launchers really don't need the boost, its just they're over costed(or imho autocannons are undercosted) in the imperial guard book.
If you've ever tried playing vs Logan Grimnar in a full squad of long fangs you'll quickly hate relentless Missile Launchers even without them tank huntering when theyre not on the move.
In reality it might give a small boost to foot guard but not a huge one as foot guard rarely want to move much past turn one because everything in the game beats them in assault.
As ever it would be mech guard that would really benefit, meaning you don't have to choose between moving your chimera or firing your heavy weapon, a big deal vs assault armies.
Yeah well, I'd also disallow the firing of heavy weapons from inside close-topped transports. :)
ReplyDeleteMaybe 48" Heavy and 12" Assault then. I agree that Long Fangs don't need a boost, but the way the current rules work irritates me. Like how grenades can't be thrown.
Anytime someone with an army that HAS grenades, generally for absolutely free, says "man it's stupid that I can't throw these grenades!" all the people with armies WITHOUT grenades should be allowed to hit them in the face with a brick.
ReplyDeleteTyranid players are the exception, they should be allowed to hit you in the fact with a sack full of bricks.
If you see me wish for something like thrown grenades, generally assume that I mean after proper testing and fair costing. With all ramifications considered. Not simply an isolated change in just one place. :P
ReplyDeleteI think there should just be a "normal" weapon category. You can move and shoot without penalty but you can't assault afterwards.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea that you can move and fire a rocket at point blank range, 12 inches sounds pretty good, but missile launchers shouldn't be assault weapons!
I think thrown grenades were removed cos it takes so long to resolve the attack. I do really like how FW added in some random damage to the Kreig Engineer's gas grenades. That seems like a neat way of speeding up the attack but adding in some casualties which would be realistic.
I like the idea of my longfangs being cheaper and assault!!!!!! Yes! Let's do it today!!!
ReplyDeleteWell Spag at least I wasn't the only wolf player to immediately say YES YOU HAVE MY VOTE!
ReplyDeleteBut in all seriousness. I do dislike the fact that it is not a realistic move and fire RPG like those that are shot in real life. But on that same note, I don't think that it should be changed in the game for balancing reasons.
If anything needs to be fixed it needs to be the points cost of a gun that if I roll a 1 can kill me and not the guy I'm shooting it with. I miss so bad, that I actually shoot myself in the face with the plasma blast. It doesn't make sense. But hey it also doesn't make sense that it is AP2, but when it 'overheats' it allows me an armor save. Whatever. Fix Plasma...worry about missiles later. They work just fine, and in the only codex in the world where the rocket can be complained about, they cost to much. well not everyone can spam an Autocannon.
not to mention how would you deal with things like a 28 missile loganwing list? That is just going to chew through you till you get there, and then it is going to shoot everything it can at you, and assault and clean up the little gribbly bitz!
ReplyDeletelol the plasma gun doesn't shoot the guy in the face... *click click* hmm not working - let me check the barrel...
ReplyDeleteIt overheats so badly that the user might suffer injuries, if he's wearing power armour that's probably a lot better than if he's dressed in flak armour.
Plasma weapons are horribly powerful, there has to be a downside to using them! For a space marine firing a plasma cannon the odds are pretty low still, around 1/18
I got no problem with the orky 24" assault 1 for guard, as long as it gets orky BS 2 too
ReplyDeleteHey fellas. I couldn't help but to comment on this one. For those of us who have fired a missile launcher, it's not something you want to do on the move. Orks, well, they don't hit much anyway. I think missile launchers are fine. If they don't do the job, buck up and buy a lascannon. If the lascannon doesn't work, play Tau.
ReplyDeleteI recently had the discussion about Krak in general. I was talking with Gravemind about Krak gaining the "Rending" special rule. It doesn't do a lot more than they already do but it gives them the ability to maybe do a devastating hit. I like the idea that a well placed Krak missile can drop a terminator or blow up a Land Raider. Even a Krak Grenade getting that well placed hit against a Land Raider could stop it dead in its tracks... think about it Luke did more to an AT-AT. It lets missiles have a marginal leg up over an autocannon, makes them a little closer to Lascannons and while dreads will still probably wreck marine squads it allows them a chance to land a well placed hit that blows that thing to pieces.
ReplyDeleteI would prefer to see lascannons rending, while missile launchers gain something that emphasizes their portability. Like moving when firing or being able to shoot out of a vehicle while other heavy weapons can't.
ReplyDeleteI think J Rock hit the nail on the head. Having fired similar weapons I can tell you they are by no means anywhere close to an assault weapon regardless of range. If an RPG is what you are wanting I would make this suggestion since we're talking house rules anyway why not just make a new option not play with the stats of missiles.
ReplyDeleteRocket Launcher: Same as Ork S8 AP3 Assault1 24"
I would make it a 10 point assault weapon option for guard squads same as meltaguns and plasma. It would be one man not a heavy weapon team. I think that might be more like an RPG in the use that you are wanting. The missile launcher has greater range and versatility. Firing even modern systems similar to that usually have teams of 2 guys a gunner and an A gunner. RPG's are lighter and fired more with the idea of spray and pray and usually at much shorter ranges than missile launchers. RPG's are also used primarily as an AT round for light armored targets such as troop carriers. Even with that I think Krak Missiles should gain rending still making them a step up from rockets. It's only a slight improvement but makes them a little better at AT. If having rockets as an option proved to be too much you might adjust the number allowed per unit or increase their cost but I think 10 points makes them a nice alternative to melta or plasma
ReplyDeleteI'd say +1 BS when firing. The thing looks like it's got targetting systems, why not?
ReplyDeleteNow I'm thinking that squads with a regular heavy weapon should roll a d6 (or d3 + 3) when moving. While more portable heavy weapons (like missile launchers) wouldn't give you a movement penalty.
ReplyDeleteOr you could run with a missile launcher, but not with a regular heavy weapon.
ReplyDelete