Friday, April 22, 2011

My Thoughts On The Competitiveness Of Orks

by SandWyrm


Uberdark took issue with something I said about Orks in the comments to my last IG article. So rather than derail that conversation with Ork-talk, I figured I'd lay out my thoughts in a proper post.

Here's what I said:
The problem with Orks is that competitiveness in 40k, more and more, is becoming all about reliability. But Orks are inherently random. It's part of their character and appeal. If you roll well as an Ork player, you'll smash face. But if you roll below average, you'll have an impossible time of it against an equally skilled player with another army.

And ya know, that's not necessarily a bad thing. There's a place for an army like that. Especially for new or more casual players. I don't want the Orks to become cold and calculating like the Tyranids.
To which he replied:
the ork army as a whole IS a tournament worthy army. and they are not just for new or casual players. thats where i disagree, you might not be able to get a win out of it every time, but they do quite well in many settings. again im stuck with this thing in my head that says, "you can beat any army as long as you interpret the setting, player, their tactics and your tactics."

i feel like when you say, "theres a place for an army like that" you are just patting me on the head and saying, "aww its ok kid." i dont know if you mean it that way, but thats how it seems. i respect ya tons and you have helped me out a lot and of that i appreciate it too. :)

i guess what im saying is any army with all its weaknesses has many other strengths. Some might be better than others, or vice versa, but he make what we can out of them and go from there.

To Which I Reply:

I don't mean to insult you at all. I'm just trying to communicate my understanding of Orks properly.

Balancing randomness and competitiveness in a game is a fundamental aspect of formal game design theory. It's a fact that new or casual players tend to (but not universally) prefer games that have a larger degree of randomness (Like Sorry, Monopoly, or Craps). Because it compensates for their lack of skill and evens the field somewhat vs. better players. While competitive/serious players tend to (but not universally) gravitate towards games that are more deterministic (Chess, Go, Poker). Because they want the outcomes of the game to more closely match their objective skill level.

So if you have an army, like Orks, that is more Random than the others (and is cheap to collect, like Orks are), it will tend to attract more new/casual players than say Eldar or Tyranids.

Yes, Orks can win tournaments. I've seen it happen. But I do think they need to have luck on their side to do so. Not because they're that aweful, but because that's how they're intentionally designed. They benefit from good luck more than any other army, but they also get torn up by bad luck much worse than other armies. You're like a poker player that's forced to swap a card in his hand for a new draw from the deck at the beginning of every round of betting. It can really help you if you're lucky. You can even learn to plan for it and improve your odds of drawing something good. But there's going to be a lot of times that you started with a  Royal Flush and were forced to throw a card away that you wanted to keep. Losing the hand as a result.

Now... If you roll precisely average as an Ork player, you'll do much worse than most other 5th Edition armies. That's where Orks need to be fixed. Not to bring them up to exact parity, but to make them less worse than the other armies when all rolls are average. I say "Less Worse" because if you make them exactly even then they'll dominate too much (as a codex) due to the boost they get from having good luck (when it hits).

You can still play Orks well or poorly (and you play them well). But at some point you're going to max out at a level of win that is lower than that of equally skilled players with more deterministic armies. That's by design, and it doesn't mean that you're a bad player. Just that your army is more random. Farmpunk has the exact same problem with his Sisters. His Exorcists are so random (D6 shots) that he'll either do really well with his long range fire, or he'll whiff completely. No matter how well he plays the rest of the force, he can't control that wild card.

Mike Brandt put up a great post yesterday on why the blandness of the Adepticon winners' lists was actually instructive. Because the winning Space Wolf list (and the 4th place Nid list) were built not to be awesome-smash efficent, but to be as reliable as possible. Because in a Win/Loss tourney with 8 games, reliability counts for more than luck. Whereas in standard 3 round tourneys, building to maximize your potential for good luck is a legitimate strategy.

37 comments:

  1. Orks are the opposite of random ... they have permanent cover save insulation from a model that can be hidden in large fearless squads AND/or in AV14 vehicles.

    They have the ability to spam vehicles, including significant #'s of non-open-toppers, in numbers higher than most anyone else, if you choose to go with that list (and I see it as the "proper" list).

    People play Orks wrong a lot, and it starts with relying on things that really ARE random, like Lootas ... random shot #, low non-twin-linked ballistic skill, easily reduced to small size squads due to high points cost for Orks, and ld7 while being near board edges and unable to move. They're the opposite of a good unit, yet the average Ork player espouses them like the most required thing to ever grace TT. *shrug*

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  2. Somebody might want to post something pointing out that Uberdark put the wrong address in the Kokomo Tourney post--it wasone of the first ones, but I believe it's the only one that's had the address in it at all.

    http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2011/02/kokomo-indiana-40k-tourney-date-change.html

    Looked it up to go print out directions until I noticed that it looks like an alley. It's 1223 W. Jackson, not 223 W. Jackson.

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  3. got it. I think I posted the real address in one of the threads, because someone asked.

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  4. @MVB

    Yes, but without Lootas, what is an Ork player supposed to do when facing large numbers of enemy vehicles?

    Without some long range anti-tank fire (reliable or not), you simply can't make a good all-comers list. So you get stuck in the situation of having to take an unbalanced list to reduce your randomness to manageable levels.

    Trukks don't work because they're paper-thin and you can't predict what will happen when one gets destroyed.

    The best performing Ork lists I've seen are Battlewagon spam (because they're the most reliable). Just look at the Ork list that made the Adepticon finals for an example. But even then you have problems. Good all-comer lists from other codices can block you or zip around your flanks for side shots. Or just sacrifice a melta squad to pop you.

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  5. "Orks are the opposite of random"
    They have some choices that are reliable, but mostly suffer from mega randomness.

    "low non-twin-linked ballistic skill"
    There's no higher ballistic skill than 2 in the entire army except for grots with their BS 3 (their cannons are reliable though fragile). The only twin linked weapons are on deffkopters and warbuggies (and they compete for slots).

    Twin linked should be made available on BWs and deff dreads.

    Trukks should get front armour 12 - for example a plow option which would also enable them to tank shock and reroll hard terrain.

    Boyz should be able to take BW as their dedicated transport, just as burna boyz with their meks (who build them) and flash gitz (who are filthy rich nobz). Lootas should be able to take looted wagon as dedicated transport (without boomgun).

    Deffgun should be twin linked with upgrades like snazzguns.

    Mega armour should give inv save 5+ as it is almost a cybork body.

    Weirdboyz should be upgradable members of oddboyz (new elite choice)

    Old Ghazhkull should unlock some nice army option, like Grotsnik and Gutsmek does. Old Zogwort could enable oddboyz to be taken as troops. I'd like some special big mek as well (and his nice army option) :)

    I'm getting sleepy. Maybe tomorrow I'll have some more ideas.

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  6. The ramshackle table should just be shelved in favor of an "iner-cha" roll that lets the Trukk go an additional D6" before it is wrecked or explodes.

    AV11 would be the best AV I'd give a Trukk to the front from a "plow" attachment.

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  7. I totally agree with Mike. 40k Orks have a huge volume of dice to keep them very stable and predictable, especially when compared to elite armies like Marines or Tau, where a few bad rolls can totally ruin your game.

    You don't need ranged AT when you have Ghazhkull and open topped battlewagons. You can reliably cover so much ground that you just run their transports to ground, glancing with the boyz, most likely immobilising it and allowing the nob to auto hit with his klaw.

    Mobility can counter this type of army, DE will have a hilarious time picking it to pieces, but you can deal with most armies and it has some nasty tricks. Parking lot guard are extremely weak to it, multi assaults from huge mobs of boys will smash up chimeras like it's going out of style.

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  8. To answer the previous question on how i work around the orks wonders of shooting.

    The ork codex has a lot of actually amazing ways to build a good all comers list. When dealing with shooting, overwhelming numbers tend to get the job done.

    For example: 19 shoota boys and a nob with rokkits hitting at 18" or 24" in an open topped battlewagon are putting out a total of 38 strength 4 hits. After the abysmal shooting of BS 2, and rolling to hit, you generally get around 12-15 wounds. Of course most are going to make saves, and 5 to 6 wounds will go through. After that you move into said squad and start an assault.

    I wont lie, i have pretty much decided to remove ALL regular squads and replace with shoota boys. Mind you they lose one attack, but have the ability to wittle down the line. Ork boys with the exception of the nob with pk pone lots of squads if they last. The issue this unit faces and will die to are things like, terminators, and massed groups like gaunts. Not that the gaunts will kill you, but that they will tie up your unit. This is where tactics come in and you MUST know what targets to attack to be able to achieve a victory.

    Cornerstone units in orks should always be boys. Massed huge amounts of boys. Stating that the trukks are not worth it I agree to an extent. Whilst the trukks are all AV 10 all the time, an easy help to this would be to run a big mek w/kff that I use multiple times. This give you a 4+ save as long as you know that you have that 6" area. Of course it being only cover, I would generally look forward to someone exploding my vehicle up close, and doing some splash damage onto them.
    That being said, 12 man mobs die quickly if not backed up by something with more substance, like 20 boys in a vehicle. With ramshackle I don't see it as hurting all that much. On a 1,2 it blows up where you stand doing what it should do anyway. 3,4 it goes in a scatter dice direction, giving you either any direction you want it to go or randomly. 5,6 it just stoops and the orks laugh as they get out and pone. The downside is the 3,4 because you do not know which way it will go. Yet again tactics come into play, AS LONG AS YOU LEAVE UNITS AROUND IT YOU WILL STOP IT OR DIRECT IT IN THE DIRECTION YOU WANT. Too many people think of orks as luck of the draw, but knowing their weaknesses can be turned around to an advantage.

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  9. Lootas: A great unit, that when split into multiple small squads CAN SOMETIMES do damage. This is the only unit that really is luck of the draw, and I personally use them all the time, until recently. I have decided to shelve my lootas for something more practical. Like kans, or nob bikers.

    Sandwyrm said, "Yes, but without Lootas, what is an Ork player supposed to do when facing large numbers of enemy vehicles?"

    Depending on your build you can do one of two things.

    1. A 9 Killa Kan wall with 2 big meks and kff. Operating with huge mobs of boys getting 4+ saves. No matter what the amount of fire in a typical or even atypical 2k or 1750 game they will eventually get to their target. You can also of course throw in a unit of nob bikers to herry your opponent and cause them to give up a turn of shooting to kill that squad. At 1850 I played sandwyrm and even though I lost, he basically unloaded 80% of his shots onto my unit of bikers and finally killed them off. Thats 80% kids. If I had had the chance to make a save (LOL) I probably would have had a better chance.

    2. The typical list I would use at 1750 will now include 2 biker bosses w/2 squads of nob bikers, 2 units of 20 shoota boys w/2 bws and deffrollas. along with 2 trukks of 12 boys. Of course all the nobs in boys mobs would have pks. The benefit of this list is that i move in with the 12 boys in two trukks and assault of course, then once they have been taken down or possibly win, the other 20 boys come in and mop up the rest. This list also benefits from the power of two nob biker squads hitting up some other guys and decimating other units or bosses.

    Reserves: This is something else that seems counter intuitive to most ork players and they do not always do this. keeping a unit of nob bikers with boss in reserve to come in and save the day will also help out when those troops start moving in. At the same time, if I am taking on a heavy mech list, I am going to be barreling towards my opponent and getting 3+ saves for going flat out. This list is what I would use to counter the horrible BS of orks. Massed shots, big guys, dakka guns, and FNP. This should keep you alive MOST of the time.

    I keep saying this too, orks are one of the most versatile armies in the game. You do not have to rely on one army type to win all the time. Try out a kan will list, a fast moving speed freaks list, or go with a hybrid fast moving horde list, which CAN be done. Heck you could even attach Ghazkull to snikrot and kommandos and watch the hijinx ensue. In the end, this oft disregarded army can actually bring the pain to many armies AND win if used correctly.

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  10. I'd like to play that Wagon/Trukk/Nob list and show you it's weaknesses. :)

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  11. i would love to play. im not saying im the best. but it would be a fun game. just watch how you say things man, cause its coming across not so nice. i just posted a long article on my own ways of dealing with orks and i feel your one post answer comes across as "ok, well i dont agree, and ill beat it fast." list some reasoning why you think it, i read your posts on list making and even said, oh now i see what you are trying to say. i give you credit for who you are. just asking for some back. this post IS a point/counterpoint argument. its great when it goes back and forth and not just a quick lets go.

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  12. Well, I pretty much said it all in the original post up top. Orks require some luck to win at a high level when all other factors are the same. It's how they're designed.

    You're doing your best to mitigate that, but it's forced you to take/create an unbalanced list that has some serious weaknesses. These are similar to the problems that Dual Raider Marine lists usually have with me.

    First off, it's ridiculously easy for me to kill 2 Trukks. Whether you have the KFF up or not. I have 15 Multilaser shots to pump into them, plus the average of 10 S6 shots from the Primaris' squad. At the very least one of them is dead and the other is immobilized or stunned on turn 1.

    That still leaves the Vendettas to scoot around the sides of the table and zap your wagons with side shots. With cover up, I would expect to stun, immobilize, or destroy one. But depending on terrain and whatnot, that may be all I need to delay the other for another turn as well.

    That leaves the Nob Bikers, but I still have the Demolisher, Russ, and Hellhound to smack them with. Plus, my blocking Vets have demo charges and flamers to torrent them down with.

    From a blocking perspective, I have the 2 Vet squads with carapace armor and melta bombs. So they're resistant to your shooting and will almost surely stop your wagon in a tank shock even if you kill half the squad in return with the wagon's dethrolla.

    If I get desperate, I can throw one of the Vendettas in front of your wagons. Skimmers get a 3+ save from ramming attacks.

    The Hellhound is there to screw with your bikers. If I'm smart I'll move it up 12-18" to block you. But I won't get right in front of you. I'll get about 6" in front of you so that you can't turbo-boost in a straight line around me after moving laterally. That will delay you for at least a turn. The demo vets buy me another turn. After that your numbers will be depleted and you'll be eating heavy flamers and meltas close up. You probably won't have any bikers left after that.

    Honestly, there are only two kinds of common Ork lists that I fear. The first is a Battlewagon list similar to the one that made the Adepticon finals. I can stop one or two wagons. But to stop 4 I'll really have to be on top of my game that day.

    The other list I fear is a Kan Wall with 150+ Boyz behind it supported by Lootas. I'd have trouble dropping the Kans at range, and if I get close enough to use my meltas, the Boyz will have me. The Lootas will eat the Hellhound and my Chimeras one by one as the game goes on.

    I still though, favor StrungMuppet's diversified rush list. It had Trukks, Dethkoptas, Bikers. All coming for you at once. It wiped the floor with me a few times, and I only beat it another time by the skin of my last bacon-stealing Vendetta. :)

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  13. @SandWyrm & uberdark: On a tangent, not directly correlated theme I'd like you to say what you think about an ork list I'm boiling for half a week now. It's an exercise in one dimensional army list - namely maxed BW's in 2k.

    It's not competitive as it can't be, but I'd love to see the face of my opponent seeing the 8 BWs :)

    The absolutely minimal cost possible (everything naked):

    HQ
    60 Warboss
    60 Warboss

    ELITE
    150 Nobz x3 + BW
    150 Nobz x3 + BW
    150 Nobz x3 + BW

    TROOPS
    150 Nobz x3 + BW
    150 Nobz x3 + BW

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    90 BW
    90 BW
    90 BW

    1140 Total

    There's only two troops and 3 empty BWs. I remedy that inserting 3 x 20 shoota boyz w/ nob (PK, bosspole) (480)


    - Warbosses need PK (50), Nobz need bosspoles (25), BWs need big shootas (40)

    - To buff small Nobz units I give all of them shoota/skorchas (75)

    - To boost AT I add 3 warbuggies with TL rokkits (105) and 4 deff rollas (80)

    1995pts Total

    - I took away bosspoles from Boyz mobs and bought one more deff rolla - this way all Nobz' BWs have one.

    Final list:

    HQ
    85 Warboss (PK)
    85 Warboss (PK)

    ELITE
    195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
    195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
    195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)

    TROOPS
    195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
    195 Nobz x3 (3 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
    155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)
    155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)
    155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)

    FAST ATTACK
    35 warbuggie (TL rokkit launcha)
    35 warbuggie (TL rokkit launcha)
    35 warbuggie (TL rokkit launcha)

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    95 BW (big shoota)
    95 BW (big shoota)
    95 BW (big shoota)

    2000 Total

    The army is made of similar blocks, so learning to use its units is simple. That makes it easier to concentrate on tactics.
    What I see is 5 Nobz' BWs trying to get as fast as they can to the enemy and roll over it. The Boyz' BWs go slower, trying to shoot their 120 dices of dakka every turn. Warbuggies come between, trying to snipe enemy AT.
    After opening transports, nobz unload, burn survivors and try to mop them up. Troop nobz go with warbosses (perhaps this will make them live little longer). Still working BWs flatten everything left like crazy. Whatever remains gets clobbered by boyz.

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  14. I've split my post - too long:

    Mercer told me I need more PK and that he prefers deffkopta for alpha strike.

    Dropping warbuggies and some shoota/skorchas I managed to give one PK to all elite units of Nobz - the troops nobz have the warbosses' PKs

    HQ
    85 Warboss (PK)
    85 Warboss (PK)

    ELITE
    210 Nobz x3 (PK, shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
    210 Nobz x3 (PK, shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
    210 Nobz x3 (PK, shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)

    TROOPS
    190 Nobz x3 (2 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
    190 Nobz x3 (2 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla)
    155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)
    155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)
    155 shoota Boyz x20 (Nob w/ PK)

    FAST ATTACK
    70 deffkopta (TL rokkit launcha, buzzsaw)

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    95 BW (big shoota)
    95 BW (big shoota)
    95 BW (big shoota)

    2000 Total

    He also said painboyz for nobz, but I don't see the points for it (not without seriously downgrading overall functionality of the list); and more deff rollas, but I think there's enough of them now - all nobz BWs have one and boyz BWs go slower and shoot.

    The only eventual change I could see doing is dropping 3 boyz and changing the big shootas on their BWs to rokkit launchas, giving a little AT. I'd have spare 3pts which could buy an ammo runt for a warboss ot stikkbombz for one nob unit.

    I miss the warbuggies - there's 9 targets now instead of 11, but a possibility of an alpha strike and three PKs more seem a good trade off. Also enemy will surely shoot deffkopta much - especially if alpha strike will be successfull - instead of shooting BWs :)

    And nobz can juggle wound allocations now.

    Tactics changes slightly as the nobz burn less but hit harder and warbuggies dissappear. Deffkopta either flat out in the scout move and alpha strike enemy unit most dangerous for my BWs if I have first turn, or hides behind wall of BWs and hit later.

    So, given your experience, say which list you think is better, and/or what would you change within "8 BWs & 2k"

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  15. sandwyrm: all good points. I am obviously not the best player, and my list is not good enough. give me another day to get back to your reply, after the tourney and my kids birthday ill be able to respond more succinctly.

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  16. Take your time. I'm not trying to win the interwebs or anything. I do respect you as a player and want to see you succeed.

    As long as I still pull out a narrow win. ;)

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  17. Check out Dash of Pepper vs Stelek in their "are Orks competitive?" test match from the NovaOpen last year (if you haven't already). It's pretty much the conclusion of the same argument:

    http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/08/darwinn-here-bringing-you-live-coverage/

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  18. I love the info. I am a newbie Ork player and this info is very helpful!!!!!

    Mike

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  19. @ Sandwyrm

    Thank you. I recently brought the Orks down off the shelf and let them have at it. They were very happy to go crushing on some Dark Eldar. Sadly the Orks fell short of victory but the fact I was an inch away from pulling out a draw made me very happy when I thought he would wipe the floor with me. It's all those shots and the fact they are just way faster. But a good Ork never backs down and will always charge head on because the first one to crack a skull wins. My good luck helped a bit as my BW with Deffrolla made almost all the KFF saves and ran a muck crashing in to raiders. It was a good game and reminded me how much I like that list.

    A question was brought up though about ramming skimmers and the deffrolla. If the skimmer dodges do they still take the deffrolla hits. We played as though they do. Obviously they dodge the ram impact but not sure about the deffrolla. Have you guys seen this come up or has it been covered already somewhere in an FAQ? If not what are some thoughts on it?

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  20. this piece of shit interface has killed my huge post

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  21. Let me paraphrse:

    Ork morale is the Achilles heel of my ork army.
    Bullship powers like jaws and hurricane and especially fear the darkness crush nob/IC use because our Init is so low.

    Our armor 14 battlewagons are easily killed, so we gotta spam em. lootas suck ass with no bosspole and not being a heavy support choice.

    Against mediocre all-comers lists/generals, we will usually stomp face. Vs those who know our units as well as us, we will struggle (a iron clad will hold up a mob of orks forever, probably 1/3rd of your army).

    Our special characters like Snikrot and zagstruk give up something to have one cool (usually one-use) ability, and then ahve no powerklaw after the charge (unless u use snik to smuggle in mad doc or ghaz).

    We are wholly subject to having our best melee unit (x10 nobs) chased off by fear the darkness because we need 's 5's or less to not run like a grot.

    Our vehicles are paper thin and do crap like run across the board with 'dont touch dat!' at inopportune times.

    Kans fall apart to thunderwolves, longfangs, and especially any monstrous critter.

    What do we have that lets us win? Hidden powerklaws, grotzokas and especially our shoota, which is everything the smurfs wish their bolter was. I've won the last 12 of 15 toruney games vs mixed opponents, and the times I've lost its been to guys who have table time against orks. Vs average to good generals with all comers who don't build against orks specifically, we have a great chance to win.

    When you face great generals who know our weakness and are prepared, we will be fighting uphill. That's the difference between us and space wolves...currently THEY have no weakness, especially vs orks when they get 30 attacks back at higher init with counter charge....

    (but hey, when we do kik their ass, it feels twice as good, eh?)

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  22. @lehcyfer:

    I've used the 8 wagonsmimnimal nobs vs hardboyz semis-round champ here, and it was close, but a loss. He had 3 vinids along with his twolves and the gray hunter squads. 3 nobs seldom have enough hit to make it worth it when they get forced out of the wagons from side-melta shots. Deffrollas are nice when they can make contact vs T5 dogs and land raiders, but they are ot very wonderful vs the common marine who still gets a 3+ armor save. I'm not very keen charging a ten man squad of hunters with 20 shoota boys, either, when I'll lose a bunch to counter attack.

    Don't sacrifice troops volume for extra deff rollas and one-side av 14...the shoota is your mork-sent winner

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  23. Can you write down your army list?
    Did you give nobz shoota/skorchas, did you use deffkopta or warbuggies?

    I guess that the 20 boyz shoots their 39 shoots before charging - that's 2-3 hunters less - even more with concentrated shooting from the other boyz.

    I know it is not competitive list - there should be at least one big mek with KFF to cover the BWs, but that's the limitation of 8 BWs.

    What I find funny is that I'd be able to make this army just out of 3 AoBR sets and the new outstanding paper models of Battlewagons by Pattoroch.

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  24. @Lehcyfer

    I'll look at your list on Monday. I'm hanging out with relatives this weekend. :)

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  25. I disagree that Orks aren't competitive. I think they are one of the most competitive codexes out there.

    I think that they are one of the less random codexes currently out. And I'd seriously disagree that if you roll average an Ork army will do worse than any other 5th edition army. I run my armies on the assumption I need twice as much of something as odds say I'll need to get the job done and Orks excell at this.

    Maybe I'll run me some orks at the Nova Invitational.....though even that won't shut the internet up in regards to Orks not being competitive....

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  26. I think it would help, Sandwyrm, if you were a little more specific when saying "Orks lose due to randomness" (yes, paraphrased, badly).

    I know you're used to having your guard auto-hit and wound, but most of us are used to a little dice rolling ;)

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  27. My message isn't that Orks can't be competitive. They are. My point is that they aren't RELIABLE. You can compete, and win, but luck has to be a part of the equation.

    You can take fairly reliable lists with Orks, but you can't take a balanced list without introducing randomness again.

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  28. sandwyrm: im not gonna post anymore on this. but im just gonna say this one thing. luck IS a part of the game for every army.

    on the terms of reliableness. sorry but no list or army is reliable. it goes back to luck. its a dice based system. if you dont roll well then you lose. no matter how good or reliable your army is. is one army more reliable than the other? yes and no. take your guard for instance, they are very reliable in many battles but they cant win against everything all the time. sure they may have a better time against orks, hell my orks for that matter, but they will lose to other armies. i think that was joels point in his winning post. no one is perfect, no army is perfect, and when a person starts saying their army is above all others or better than most, well thats just silly. a persons own tactics make them good, a codex also helps, and dice rolls help a lot. in the end all of that together makes it a winning situation. not to mention all the same goes for your opponent.

    in the end, new armies will come out, other armies will get shoved back to "less than competitive" in many peoples opinions, and then another will come out. and another. i just have nowhere else to go. i have my opinion you have yours, ill leave it at that.

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  29. on a side note: to the guys on here who were asking questions on orks and how to make certain lists better i would be glad to do a more in depth look at any of your lists or what you can do to make them better. email me at uberdark@yahoo.com

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  30. Do I really need to explain that rolling a D3 for # of shots, then rolling to hit/would is more random, unreliable, and potentially awesome than my army always knowing how many shots it has?

    Just about everything in the Ork Codex is like this. There are extra layers of randomness everywhere. From Dethrollas to Ramshackle, to Waaagh! moves.

    Yes, I can roll badly, and often do. Losing games as a result. But if I roll a bit less than average all is not lost. If Orks do that, they're dead.

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  31. be my guest. you win. im done. lol

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  32. @Sandworm: The cover from KFF and warbike is automatic, as well as hits from flamers which get around the ork's abyssal BS2. I like that and try to maximize it in my armies.

    The # of shots from deffguns, hits from deff rollas, inches forward from waaagh! is potentially awesome/meh. I embrace the randomness, am proud and take delight of it and take as much of it as possible and at the same time maximize the number of dice thrown.

    When you get around to looking at my lists, say what you think of swapping all the nobs mobz in the first list with:

    195 Nobz x3 (2 shoota/skorcha, bosspole) + BW (big shoota, deff rolla, red paint job)

    I swap one shoota/skorcha for red paint job as they really need to get there as fast as possible :)

    @uberdark: don't be shy, put your 8 BWs list here, I'd love to see what you cooked up.

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  33. So let's try, kids...

    Lootas? Say you have 6. That's... 90 points? Even when rolling a 1 for shots, that's 2 S7 hits. Is 90 points worth that? Probably. Is 90 points worth probably getting 2 or 3 times that? Definitely. Is there a random chance involved? Yes. But it's always worth the cost. That's why lootas are just plain good.

    Ramshackle - considering that Uberdark gave a perfect (and easy) way to circumvent the (roughly) 20% chance of something bad happening, with another 50% being fully beneficial, I can't see too much of a downside.

    Waagh! being random? Right, because every other fleet roll in the game is standardized... I forgot.

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  34. The issue for me with Lootas is how easily they run. If you kill a few, they run 50% of the time... right off the board.

    I've seen them do well in a wagon as a bunker, but most players don't like doing that.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on Ramshackle.

    I don't feel like writing a post on statistical theory. But anytime that one roll depends on another it exponentially increases the variations due to luck.

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  35. The trouble with lootas in a wagoon is that you only need to shake the wagon to stop them from shooting - disabling two costly units at the same time.

    foodie: of course waagh is random :) as any other fleet. As I wrote, I embrace the Ork randomness.

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  36. Bleh I hate using lootas...it requires a 2nd HQ just to give them a bosspole, and really, how many times can you blow up a rhino, regardless of how many str 7 shots? Plus they compete for some of the funner elite options, like tankbustas and burna boyz

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  37. I like the lootas, the shoota boyz, the uplifting sensation of fullfists of dice, then hunting for 5s and 6s :)

    My dice suck btw - I need to buy me some proper precision dice...

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